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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » DTS not reverting to analog with wrong disks. (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: DTS not reverting to analog with wrong disks.
Heath Dutton
Film Handler

Posts: 37
From: Montgomery, Alabama / United States of America
Registered: Jul 2005

- posted 09-29-2005 04:40 PM      Profile for Heath Dutton   Email Heath Dutton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Any time the wrong disks are in a DTS unit as soon as the movie starts the sound goes MUTE, and does not revert back to analog.

What puzzles me is that this used to never happen. Then occasionally there would be two prints swapping on an auditorium that this would happen with. At the time I thought that perhaps the time-codes for those prints were similar and it was just a coincidence. But then I noticed that it was happening ANY time we used the wrong disks (around the release of Garfield). I then attributed it to the DTS software update I had received a notice for. Speaking of which, I can't remember ever receiving a disk for it. I was told that it would be coming built into the trailer disks by a manager, but I remember reading something telling me different. Perhaps we were never upgraded, and thats our problem?

We have:
DTS-6D units connected to Ultra-Stereo JS-200 processors (with revision D Format cards)

So, to recap: Our DTS units "should" be free to switch to digital and back at will, and they DO, but only in the trailers and movies with the correct disks inserted. When the wrong disks are in, the movie stays in digital, and the customers hear nothing. EDIT: Our automation is not connected to the "digital" on the back of the JS-200s, so the automation does not force the processor into digital at all.

On a side note:
Thanks to all of the input I got on our "Amp Situation Critical", as we have just ordered LCR QSC amps for our 4 larges houses with the promise that we can get enough for 6 more houses next year to replace the failing BGWs.

[ 10-04-2005, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Heath Dutton ]

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Mike Blakesley
Film God

Posts: 12767
From: Forsyth, Montana
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 09-29-2005 05:29 PM      Profile for Mike Blakesley   Author's Homepage   Email Mike Blakesley   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can't help you with your problem cuz I'm not a tech, but it sounds like you have a bigger problem -- not making sure the correct disks are in place before starting the show. If it happens more than, say, once every two years you need to have a serious chat with your booth personnel.

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Heath Dutton
Film Handler

Posts: 37
From: Montgomery, Alabama / United States of America
Registered: Jul 2005

- posted 09-29-2005 06:34 PM      Profile for Heath Dutton   Email Heath Dutton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I knew somone was going to say that....

And yes, I agree that the human error side of this is a serious problem, but with a multiplex that has at least four auditoriums swapping between prints every day all day, sooner or later human error will creep in. Out of all the things needed to adjust to another print forgetting to change the disks is the easiest, and it unfortunately happens once a week or more depending on how recently we hired a new projectionist. Keep in mind that if the system were working normally such an error would most likely go completely un-noticed, but in this case it is painfully obvious!

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

- posted 09-29-2005 07:48 PM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dolby has NEW, revolutionary digital sound-on-film!!! My, My, what WILL they think of next! Louis

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 09-29-2005 08:36 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The firmware in the DTS is probably not current and that has been a symptom that I have seen

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

- posted 09-29-2005 09:33 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
This sounds to me like the automation is pulsing the processor into digital, and if the dts player doesn't have the correct discs, it is sitting there idle doing nothing (as it should), but because the automation pulsed the processor into digital, you have silence. (I know you have already verified this is not the case, but still for future archive troubleshooting purposes I'll leave this here.)

Do this test. With a show running in dts (obviously this means with the correct discs), stick a business card in between the film and led. Does it drop out or go to silence?

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted 09-30-2005 03:09 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
How old are those units? Look on the back of the unit and see if you can see a build date/year. Being DTS 6D units wonder if these units are due for the upgrades to V.1.46 and adding new SCSI, AQRM cards and new trays to go along with it. Also, if this unit is quite old, then it'll probably have that RomDos chip in it as well.

Plus, with JS-200's, that format card (the front with all of those little buttons for sound formats) loves to go wookie at times-which could be doing this to you.

Been there and done that as well. - Monte

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Wolff King Morrow
Master Film Handler

Posts: 490
From: Denton, TX, USA
Registered: Feb 2004

- posted 09-30-2005 03:47 AM      Profile for Wolff King Morrow   Author's Homepage   Email Wolff King Morrow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Heath, its most likely your firmware version on the DTS units. Unfortunately, our units are so old that we have to replace the eeprom chips and the pci card (or at least I had to). It also could be the automation like Brad said, but I doubt that since this problem has only recently come up for you.

In regards to your disc swapping problem, you can avoid this using a personal "ritual". What we do is set the DTS discs that are not to be played on the print itself, then when you go to play the 2nd feature of the double-up, you are FORCED to put the right discs in. This method has allowed us to avoid 99.9% having the wrong discs in.

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000

- posted 09-30-2005 04:18 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have seen this happen before but only when I use the trailer discs that DTS sends out. For some reason if the last trailer playing is on the trailer disc and is also included on the feature disc and said feature disc is not in the unit, the player will refuse to switch back over to analog. All upgradeable components have been upgraded an all units. Very strange.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted 09-30-2005 05:38 AM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Wolff King Morrow
What we do is set the DTS discs that are not to be played on the print itself, then when you go to play the 2nd feature of the double-up, you are FORCED to put the right discs in. This method has allowed us to avoid 99.9% having the wrong discs in.
LOL...Wolffe, You must have been at my theatre and looked over my shoulder when I started this little practice a few years back - placing the discs on the print themselves when doubling DTS prints in one house, thus "forcing" you to put the right discs in the trays.

-just make sure that you get the right discs in due to that as many billion bits are on those discs, one bit can be the same as another bit on a different disc-example: We played an "R" rated movie with a Disney few years back in a small house. The "R" rated discs were left in the trays when the Disney was playing and the Disney had a section of timecode that matched the "R" rated discs and nasty words came out of Tinkerbell's mouth..OH, what a day that was to absolve that one to the irate customers...(LOL)

-Monte

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Heath Dutton
Film Handler

Posts: 37
From: Montgomery, Alabama / United States of America
Registered: Jul 2005

- posted 09-30-2005 09:21 AM      Profile for Heath Dutton   Email Heath Dutton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
This sounds to me like the automation is pulsing the processor into digital,
That was my first thought, but the wire that does this "pulse" to digital on the back of the JS-200s was disconnected by a smart tech/projectionist before I ever came on board. And I have done the "buisness card" test, and yes under normal circumstances the DTS units do switch back to analog when the DTS timecode is unreadable.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
How old are those units? Look on the back of the unit and see if you can see a build date/year.
I will do that as soon as I get to the booth today.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Plus, with JS-200's, that format card (the front with all of those little buttons for sound formats) loves to go wookie at times-which could be doing this to you.
Tell me about it! The little diaphrams inside them are constantly going bad, and are a major pain to fix. But usually it's a stereo or non-sinc button that gets stuck (one we might press often).
quote: Wolff King Morrow
you can avoid this using a personal "ritual". What we do is set the DTS discs that are not to be played on the print itself, then when you go to play the 2nd feature of the double-up, you are FORCED to put the right discs in. This method has allowed us to avoid 99.9% having the wrong discs in.
Good idea! I'll try to get the team to do this as a temp solution.

Sounds like it's firmware from what you guys are saying... any idea how I can determine the firmware of my units quickly whithout taking them apart?

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000

- posted 09-30-2005 10:00 AM      Profile for Darryl Spicer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
do you have to insert the discs in a drawer or do you have to use a disc caddy? If caddy then everything needs to be upgraded. If drawer then most likely the upgrade has already happened. However, check the date on the back of the unit. If older than I believe 1997 it may still have the older chip in it. However, on that case with being an older chip I have found that most likely you will have problems with sound dropping out when it switches to the second disc. Apparently the new DTS.exe file only likes the new chip now. Had that problem on one of my older units till I did the upgrade. Everything ran fine till they did that change.

If you are running trailer discs or if thier is a trailer on the film that is also included on the wrong disc, the problem you have had can occure. I have seen it on the same type setup using Ultra-stereo processors.

quote: Heath Dutton
Tell me about it! The little diaphrams inside them are constantly going bad, and are a major pain to fix. But usually it's a stereo or non-sinc button that gets stuck (one we might press often).
What? your automation does not pulse the Ultra-stereo to non-synce or stereo?

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Heath Dutton
Film Handler

Posts: 37
From: Montgomery, Alabama / United States of America
Registered: Jul 2005

- posted 09-30-2005 10:48 AM      Profile for Heath Dutton   Email Heath Dutton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Darryl Spicer
do you have to insert the discs in a drawer or do you have to use a disc caddy?
Ours are drawers.
quote: Darryl Spicer
If you are running trailer discs or if thier is a trailer on the film that is also included on the wrong disc, the problem you have had can occure. I have seen it on the same type setup using Ultra-stereo processors.
I have not tried running a double without the trailer disk, but I will probably experiment with that when I get the chance. Because of the frequency of the problem I have my doubts about it just being a trailor issue, but I won't rule it out till I test it.
quote: Darryl Spicer
What? your automation does not pulse the Ultra-stereo to non-synce or stereo?
Yes it does, only the pulse to digital has been disabled. We still have to push those buttons on occasion. i.e. power brown-outs that send all the JS-200s to non-sinc, or when we have in-auditorium announcements, or if I notice the black leader is too short and they are gonna miss the first part of the opening policy, etc. Those little buttons just weren't designed to last, or to be easily replaced.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted 09-30-2005 12:24 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yea, the DTS-6 units had the two caddy drives (which a 3tray upgrade it will work with these old dinosaurs. DTS discontinued the 2-tray upgrade kits for the 2-tray "6", which will upgrade the DTS-6 to the V.1.46 version), which came out in 1993 and now they are dinosaurs being no made anymore. DTS-6D's came out with common Toshiba 3-tray units in late 1996, and these units had the V.1.27,firmware chip inside.

Might have to pop tbe top off and look at the first long card and find the socket which contains the chip that'll have the firmware version posted on top of it. (while you have the top off, get a blower, or a can of "air-off" and blow all the "dust bunnies" and around the power supply out)

-Monte

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 09-30-2005 12:57 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the caddy drives work nothing but the firmware needs to be upgraded.
The current firmware will work with older drives scsi RomDos etc
The pulse length from DTS to analogue is a bit on the short side for some JS format boards to read and I had to remove the schmit trigger caps on the format board in more than one location but that does leave the JS open to noise false switching

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