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Topic: King Kong will be a Cyan Release

Ted Costas
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 119
From: Hollywood, CA, USA
Registered: May 2000

posted 11-08-2005 03:56 PM

As you've probably heard, New Line, Fox, Sony, and Universal are all releasing using cyan dye analog soundtracks. They are joining DreamWorks, Disney, MGM, and Miramax.

Universal released "DOOM" with 100% cyan dye analog soundtracks, and after experiencing no problems, they have elected to release all future pictures this way. "King Kong" will be one of those.

This is just an FYI in case you have been out of the loop.

Yours, Ted
President, The Inter-Society for the Enchancement of Cinema Presentation

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 11-08-2005 07:40 PM

"Enhancement" and "Enchantment," eh, Ted? [Smile]

--jhawk

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 11-12-2005 02:57 PM

Does releasing cyan typically save them any $$$ in the processing over redeveloped?

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Pete Lawrence
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 192
From: Middleburg, PA
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 11-12-2005 08:37 PM

If it didn't reduce the cost of striking a print cyan audio tracks would have never happened. The environmental aspects of it are irrelevant.

The old phrase that states "if you want to know why something is happening, follow the money" still applies.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 11-14-2005 09:37 AM

The environmental benefits are very real. Almost half of the water used for print film processing was for washing the bead of viscous sound developer off the film withhout splashing back into the picture area. The caustic, viscous soundtrack developer contained hydroquinone. Almost 100% of the silver in the film can now be recovered during processing, keeping it out of landfills or fly ash (although Kodak's FPC recycles a good percentage of used prints). Cyan dye tracks eliminate the waste and quality issues from soundtrack application problems.

Even though labs are still processing a mix of cyan and dye+silver prints, the redevelopment and wash-off steps are easily bypassed when cyan track prints are being made, so the environmental advantages are happening now.

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002

posted 11-14-2005 09:49 AM

Until last week I'd handled three cyan prints:

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
Madagascar.
Yes.

This week two turned up together:

Herbie Fully Loaded.
Kinky Boots.

Almost doubled the number in one week. Does this mean that it is really starting to happen now after several years of 'any time now'?

Haven't found any problems running them. Interestingly, the trailers for these films haven't been cyan, most haven't even been high magenta, just conventional tracks. Switching between the trailer on one machine and the actual film on the other I haven't been able to hear any difference on the two films I've tried it with.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 11-14-2005 10:19 AM

quote: Stephen Furley
Haven't found any problems running them. Interestingly, the trailers for these films haven't been cyan, most haven't even been high magenta, just conventional tracks. Switching between the trailer on one machine and the actual film on the other I haven't been able to hear any difference on the two films I've tried it with.

As Ted Costas notes, the majority of major distributors have already converted to cyan dye tracks, or soon will be. The audible differences between cyan dye tracks and silver+dye tracks are as predicted by the Dye Track Committee, and negligible in most cases, as you have found:

http://www.dyetracks.org/ci.os.0012.reddye.html

quote:
...Since silver tracks absorb well into the visible portion of the light spectrum, a reader that employs a 660-nm red LED light source will be able to reproduce silver tracks and cyan dye tracks with almost equal amplitude;...This is why silver and dye tracks can be interchangeably played on red readers with no gain adjustment of the playback electronics....Extensive listening tests at Dolby Laboratories have shown that the use of Dolby SR encoded soundtracks, although not completely eliminating the additional red reader noise, reduces its effect to the point that air conditioner noise will significantly mask the problem....Although a quality of audio reproduction, which the average movie patron would not detect as being different from the current standard, and, may in fact, because of increased stereo separation, wider frequency response at high power levels and significant reduction of illumination nonuniformity distortion perceive as being an audible improvement, is produced by red readers, a closer match, with regard to crossmod performance, can and should be achieved.

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Pete Lawrence
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 192
From: Middleburg, PA
Registered: Aug 1999

posted 11-14-2005 11:22 AM

Are there any estimates out there of the cost savings, in say percentage terms, between a large run of prints in cyan VS a conventional silver track?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 11-14-2005 11:37 AM

quote: Pete Lawrence
Are there any estimates out there of the cost savings, in say percentage terms, between a large run of prints in cyan VS a conventional silver track?

Mostly the savings in water usage and any sewer fees that are based on volume --- would depend on the lab location. Slight reduction in chemical costs and mixing/maintenance labor for the soundtrack developer application. Reduction in waste would depend on how well the lab had been applicating soundtrack developer. A few percent more silver being recovered from the fixer.

Again, the environmental benefits and quality improvement were the driving factors, not the cost reduction.

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Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 11-14-2005 03:51 PM

Same here on sound level and quality issues between cyan and silver tracks--there don't seem to be any differences, we've played at least 10 or so since last year this time.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 11-14-2005 05:38 PM

We continue to get regular complaints with our theatres running older titles with the red readers...very harsh and clipped sounding. These just don't sound adequate with red readers. Ironically, it is these theatres that will be running film the most when the switch is made to digital media.

We have some that are running on IR readers to avoid the sound distortion (had to remove the visible red LEDs due to complaints). The issue at the moment are those theatres that run a mix of current Hollywood product as well as archival titles...places like the American Film Institute where we have the biggest problem...they have played cyan films but the predominate features are older titles that do not sound very good with the red readers. In the Historic theatre, there are four projectors with 35mm capability, we will probably set up two for IR and two for visible red readers to allow optimized readers for both types of soundtracks. The problem is that there are two other theatres and one of those two tends to play the most of the older titles. What to do and remain flexible? I would love it if the basement readers had three heads, one for IR, one for Visible and one for Dolby Digital with the ability to switch between the IR and Visible on the fly.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 11-14-2005 06:19 PM

Steve; there are at least 2 titles presently playing first run using B&W print film. Are these bad also? Louis

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 11-14-2005 07:21 PM

I'll bet Ultra Stereo could make you up some analog penthouse readers for red and IR leds. Then you could leave the original soundheads equipped with regular exciters and switch between the three.

How about it Clint? [thumbsup]

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Alex Grueneberg
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 125
From: Chicago, IL
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 11-14-2005 10:39 PM

quote: Ted Costas
As you've probably heard, New Line, Fox, Sony, and Universal are all releasing using cyan dye analog soundtracks. They are joining DreamWorks, Disney, MGM, and Miramax.

Ahh nuts.

This is getting bad. I have 4 theaters, none of which have cyan dye readers. One theater has dts, the other 2 are dolby-a. The last one is UltraStereo's "Ultra front surround". That theater being the best for cyan because its all jacked up. As well as the dts house. I don't understand what I am supposed to do, my company doesn't seem to really care. Now previews are starting to come cyan.

[Frown]

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 11-15-2005 12:15 AM

Black and Whites seem to play fine...IR is cleaner but none of the crossmod distortion as on the color stocks.

Note too, the 1st run B&W films are playing digital anyway (they have all three digitals at the AFI).

Kinoton has made a version of the FP38E that has an extra conventional optical soundhead...a few problems...one I'm not that big a fan of the original Philips optical sounhead...the drum is too small and often suffers from flutter. Most of my theatres that cater to the older titles use Rock-n-roll projectors and the extra soundhead doesn't have a flywheel decoupler for running in reverse.

Then there are the logistics...these are 2-projector changeover (except the AFI historic that is 4-projector)...adding a second soundhead to each machine requires quite a complex switching arrangement for the sound to make it through all of the various processing (Dolby Stereo with NR and all). One would need 4 optical preamps, all switched, plus delay lines if they are to be penthouse type readers.

What I would like is a reliable method of rotating the LED head so either IR or visible are available and for the focus of the analog reader to be adjustable like the old FP16 or FP18 slit lenses were. There is a focus difference between IR and visible light. I've even toyed with the idea of a light pipe (like the Dolby CAT 699 and CAT700) to provide white or visible red light...thus the light source can be located back in the machine.

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