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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Could this be a real B&H CinemaScope 55 anamorphic? (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Could this be a real B&H CinemaScope 55 anamorphic?
Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 11-17-2005 11:09 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Years ago we were sold two B&H anamorphics. VERY big things with a 5in diam front element and a 4in dia rear element. They were told that these anamorphics were used for projection of CinemaScope 55 prints and that when coupled with large entry primes (4in diam front elements), they were very light-efficient and have very good resolution due to the fact that the smaller 35mm image doesn't use the extreme corners of the lens but sits in the center where acuity it better than the edges. Thing is, these two anamorphics don't say anything about being CinemaScope 55 lenses. In fact, they don't give any hint whatsoever about their monstrous size as compared to other more standard B&H anamorphics. All that is stamped on the front is CinemaScope Projector Attachment II DE958. It's got the usual red adjustment ring which focuses from 50ft out to 500ft. So was the guy who sold these to us just slinging it when he said they were CinemaScope 55 lenses? Did CS55 even play commercially? I understood it to be that once Fox printed down the 55mm negs to 35mm, the improvement in the image quality was so impressive that they abandoned the idea of CS55 release prints altogether.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 11-17-2005 11:12 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
No. Those are just old 1950's anamorphics. We have several in the CLACO dungeon [Eek!] [evil] . Coke bottles I say, door stops possibly!

CS55 did play in 55mm in Chicago I believe at the State-Lake Theatre. BL&S has a CS55 Century projector... or at least did at one time. I have a photo of it. Years ago I had an unused movement from one of the Century 55mm projectors. 35/55 sprocket and accelerated pull down. Its now at the Chicago Cinema Museum if you happen to be in Chicago. All in all today its a really stupid format that Fox tried to use to overcome early Cinemascope's inherent lack of resolution. By the time 55mm came out 35mm Cimemascope camera lenses and film stock had improved to a point that 55mm was rendered obsolete. "King And I" was printed up to 70mm Todd-AO for later wide spread release.

Mark

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 11-17-2005 11:25 PM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Mark. I figured as much. I hate salesmen.

So what was the point of making them so huge? Did the size actually give them any advantage over the other anamorphics of the day? Were there any actual CS55 engagements with 55mm release prints? And if so, were there actual anamorphic designed for that format?

By the way, I popped one of these B&H's in and the picture wasn't terrible.... I was able to get a decent focus, but nothing like our Schneiders or ISCOs (am getting a pair of Ultra MC Blue Stars next week for my 1.85 flat lenses -- I can't wait).

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 11-18-2005 12:15 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank said "So what was the point of making them so huge? Did the size actually give them any advantage over the other anamorphics of the day? Were there any actual CS55 engagements with 55mm release prints? And if so, were there actual anamorphic designed for that format? "
They were that large so they could couple to the 4" diameter lens that were popular in the lnger focal lengths to maintain a decent f stop

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

- posted 11-18-2005 09:16 AM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Cinemascope 55: Carousel & King & I I think were the only features. Almost no theaters were equipped. (I saw a 55mm Westrex in Memphis, TN) At home, I have a really decent VHS "King & I" with the Cinemascope 55 logo & extension.)louis

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

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From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

- posted 11-18-2005 01:35 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yo, Mark - wasn't C/S-55 to give chase to Cinerama as well - anything to give chase to the "grandeur" market?

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

- posted 11-18-2005 01:55 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
CinemaScope 55:

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingcs6.htm

quote:
As screen sizes grew, the increased magnification of the small 35mm frame produced objectionably visible grain and screen brightness suffered. Paramount had addressed this problem with their large negative VistaVision in 1953/1954. 20th Century Fox responded to the need for improved print quality in 1955 with the development of the CinemaScope 55 system. Using an Eastmancolor negative 55.625 mm wide and a frame 8 perforations high, the Fox 4x55 camera and new CinemaScope lenses recorded a picture four times the size of 35mm CinemaScope. In 1929 Fox had developed a 70mm large format system they called "Grandeur". A few feature films had been made in the process but the cameras had been shelved for 25 years when Fox engineers dusted one of them off and had it converted to handle the special 55.625mm negative. Working with Bausch & Lomb optical company, a new set of larger anamorphic lenses was developed to cover the four times larger image.

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/wingcs7.htm

quote:
It's big and it's ugly and it took a gorgeous picture. The CinemaScope 55 camera started life as a Mitchell built 70mm Grandeur camera in 1929. It was far too noisy for dialog shooting, as were all cameras in 1929, and a gigantic Technicolor type blimp was built to house it when in use in the studio. The 100mm "Super CinemaScope Lens" took in the same field of view as a 50mm CinemaScope lens in 35mm.
This camera resides in the A.S.C. Museum in Los Angeles, California.

Photos courtesy of Roy H. Wagner.


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Larry Myers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 371
From: Herndon, VA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

- posted 11-18-2005 07:01 PM      Profile for Larry Myers         Edit/Delete Post 
Since several people have actually seen a Cinemascope 55 projector, I guess these projectors would also have the 8 perf pulldown. That would have been something to see.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 11-18-2005 07:03 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is also a 55mm camera in the Chicago Cinema Museum photos. Page one, look for the big green camera that says Mitchell NC... alas it is labeled wrong as are much of those photo pages. Its actually Fearless Camera Company piece.

quote: Larry Myers
Since several people have actually seen a Cinemascope 55 projector, I guess these projectors would also have the 8 perf pulldown. That would have been something to see.
Larry, You are correct in that assumption. All those odd movements for both CS-55 and VistaVision were modified Century movements, both C and A model movments were used. The CS-55 movement was the most complex and was accelerated just slightly.

The early VV movements were built from model C movements. Those had LOTS of problems aside from the tiny star and cam wearing out quickly the taper pins secusing the sprocket to the star shaft used to shear off in the middle of a show... and they used three taper pins on those sprockets! There is alot of start/stop inertia going on there with that large diameter sprocket. The later units and CS-55 machines used modified A model movements that had the larger star and cam and the screw and nut to fasten the sprocket to the star shaft. All of these movemetns ran very reliably.

Oddly, in an attempt to prolong the useful life of the hand built early VV projectors the earler C model VV movements were ultimately scrapped in favor of a Brenkert movement(which had the largest star and cam at that time) that ran in its own tank of oil hung from the bottom of the machine. There were only a few of these machines and they were superceeded by the production model VV projector that used the A model movement. Its very possible that the Production version of the VV projector was the very first machine to use that movement which is still with us today.

Mark

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1383
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999

- posted 11-18-2005 08:36 PM      Profile for Paul Linfesty   Email Paul Linfesty   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Larry Myers
I guess these projectors would also have the 8 perf pulldown.
No. CS55 projectors would have had 6 perf pulldown. The CS55 negative was 8 perfs, but the planned projection prints were shrunk down to allow room for mag tracks. Planned is the key word here. Almost all sources on the subject say there was no release prints made in this format.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 11-18-2005 10:52 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Donno Paul, The movement I had did have a 32 tooth 55mm sprocket with a 16 tooth 35mm sprocket inside that. It would also explain the need for the movement to be accelerated slightly in order to gain maximum light efficiency thorugh the projector with that tall of a film frame. Its also possible this was planned but then never executed. The movement I had was never used. Anyway, what a stupid film format this would be today [Roll Eyes] .

Mark

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Carl Martin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1424
From: Oakland, CA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

- posted 11-19-2005 04:55 AM      Profile for Carl Martin   Author's Homepage   Email Carl Martin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
could it be that there were dailies projectors with 8-perf pulldown, before the optical reduction which would have been done for release prints?

carl

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Larry Myers
Master Film Handler

Posts: 371
From: Herndon, VA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

- posted 11-19-2005 04:07 PM      Profile for Larry Myers         Edit/Delete Post 
An 8 to 6 perf reduction from negative to print would also mean the print would no longer be 55mm wide. That is if the reduction is in both directions. If not, then the Cinemascope projection lens would need to be a 3x type to correct for even a greater anamorphic then the normal 2x Anyone know if a 3x Cinemascope lens was made for a 6 perf pull down projector?

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Thomas Jonsson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 216
From: Bromolla, Sweden
Registered: Sep 2003

- posted 11-19-2005 05:02 PM      Profile for Thomas Jonsson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If I´m not mistaken, the Bauer U2 was originally supposed to
handle 35mm, 70mm - and 55mm as well. I once saw a picture of
a prototype, with no enclosure of the projector head. Anyone
with more information on this?

Thomas

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Steven J Hart
Master Film Handler

Posts: 282
From: WALES, ND, USA
Registered: Mar 2004

- posted 11-19-2005 06:10 PM      Profile for Steven J Hart   Author's Homepage   Email Steven J Hart   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank, I notice that the front page to your Brooklyn Center Cinema Website states:
Featuring DTS® state-of-the-art, THX-type Digital Stereo, Dolby SR, and Mulit-track Magnetic Stereo presented in
6 Channel Total Surround
MegaSound™
and the largest, true CinemaScope screen in Brooklyn
using Bausch & Lomb
Ultra-High Definition CinemaScope 55 Lenses

But now we find out there is actually no such thing [Wink]
Steve

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