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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Lenticular Silver Screen Does it Reduce Hot Spots? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Lenticular Silver Screen Does it Reduce Hot Spots?
Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 12-18-2005 08:17 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
We are going to put in a new screen in a 400 seat theatre. The seating is arranged so that the isles are no wider than the right and left edges of the screen.

I know that high-gain silver screens have big problems with off-axis seats getting hot spots, and normally there would not be any reason to spec a high gain screen because light levels on the existing matte white are fine. BUT, they are hot on doing dual projector polarized 3D, so a silver screen is mandatory.

My understanding is that lenticular screens reduce the hot-spots and still allow for polarized 3D. Used to be that until recently you lenticular silver screens were no longer manufactured. But now there is a lenticular screen manufactured by MDR (not sure if that's exactly the right name....I am not at the theatre office).

Questions is, would it be wise to spec a lenticular silver screen for use with standard 2D films (the majority of what will be shown in this venue). I wouldn't be too concerned because of the unusually narrow seat arrangement, but I would be happy to hear from anyone who has actually seen a silver screen used for regular movies as to the pros and con, and if anyone has seen one of these lenticular jobs, that would be even more to the point.

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1341
From: Evansville, Indiana
Registered: Jan 2000

- posted 12-18-2005 09:28 AM      Profile for Richard Hamilton   Email Richard Hamilton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank,
It is probably MDI out of Canada. You could talk to Andrew Lee, he has posted on here a few times. I did a big screen 8/70 3d that also shows 35mm. I didn't notice any hotspots during the screenings of the 35mm presentation. The only bitch is focusing the lamp, because from the booth, the middle of the screen looks hot. I ended up watching the light on the dusty porthole to do the lamp focusing [Smile] .

Later, Rick

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Gordon McLeod
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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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- posted 12-18-2005 09:32 AM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I didn't think anyone made a perforated lenticular any more
I would be interested in how it works out
on silver screens I always use the PSA since the hot spot visable from the booth is usually opposite to what the audience sees

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

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From: prospect ky usa
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- posted 12-18-2005 09:43 AM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The silver screen will always hot spot.

The question is: in their zeal to do 3D; can they accept a reduction (maybe large, maybe small) in the overall quality of all other films?

Certainly not to be an improvement.

Louis

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 12-18-2005 12:34 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Technikote(or Technicrap) made the last true lenticular screen. There may be a foreign manufacturer that makes one but I am not aware of one. The original D-150 screens were lenticuluar but the lenticles varied in size across the width of the screen to improve light diistribution and decrease cross reflection. Harkness has the best equivelent in my experience..... Stewart is not sturdy enough but not sure if they have something close or not anyway..... Hurley has gotten an F on the last couple of screen jobs we did with them.... Lets see if others chime in as to what brand they find works best.

Mark

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Richard Fowler
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From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

- posted 12-18-2005 01:21 PM      Profile for Richard Fowler   Email Richard Fowler   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tecknikote and Hurley are the only people handling lenticular on a special order basis....we rescreened a D150 house ten years ago and the lenticular was a pain due to the heavy weight of the fabric backing to the screen surface. Andrew Lee is no longer at MDI and the last report has switched over to Franklin Designs.

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Richard Hamilton
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From: Evansville, Indiana
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- posted 12-18-2005 01:55 PM      Profile for Richard Hamilton   Email Richard Hamilton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Richard Fowler
Andrew Lee is no longer at MDI and the last report has switched over to Franklin Designs.
My bad. Bobby told me this but I forgot [Embarrassed]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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- posted 12-18-2005 08:12 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Richard Fowler
Tecknikote and Hurley are the only people handling lenticular on a special order basis....
Richard,

I'm not sure that even Technicote can supply lenticlular any longer. It was about the same time frame... 10 years ago that I talked to them about producing a large Leticular surface for a customers plan for a deep curve screen. I was told back then that they had barely enough to produce the screen I wanted and that after that material was depleted there were no plans to have more produced.... because of lack of orders. 10 years ago theirs was the only really true lenticular surface left on the market. Back then Hurley could not produce one for me at all.

Mark

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Lyle Romer
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From: Davie, FL, USA
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- posted 12-18-2005 10:10 PM      Profile for Lyle Romer   Email Lyle Romer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Forgive my ignorance but what is a lenticular screen?

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William Hooper
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From: Mobile, AL USA
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- posted 12-19-2005 03:34 AM      Profile for William Hooper   Author's Homepage   Email William Hooper   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A matte screen throws diffuse reflections, straight back, up, down, left, right, like the splat when you throw a rock in a puddle.

A lenticular screen is designed to minimize off-axis reflictions, thus reflecting light more straight back (but keeping up & down reflections, since the audience is seated below the centerline of the screen). It is usually done by manufactuing the screen with vertical structures like ridges on its surface.

If you're lucky, John Pytlak will add more that will clarify this, & possibly include the extra treat of the word 'specular'.

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Frank Angel
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From: Brooklyn NY USA
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- posted 12-19-2005 07:34 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Louis Bornwasser
The silver screen will always hot spot.

The question is: in their zeal to do 3D; can they accept a reduction (maybe large, maybe small) in the overall quality of all other films?

Certainly not to be an improvement.
Well, they really are hot to do dual 3D, but I know the downside here and that's why I want to investigate lenticular. I have no direct experience with this and only know from reading and hearsay that lenticular reduces the hot-spot problem to a minimum. Evidently part of the original CinemaScope package spec-ed a lenticular silver screen, I think Fox dubbed it their Miracle Mirror surface or something like that. Supposedly it eliminated hot spots except for extreme off-axis seats. And of course the helpful thing here is that there are no off-axis seats in this room. I am hoping with the combination of that and whatever attenuation lenticular will give in terms of hot-spots, I can get away with one-screen fits all.

I guess the safest path would be to install a normal flat or medium gain (they do slide presentations and 16mm so some gain is very helpful) and then if they want to do 3D, just hang a silver on the same frame (match the perfs? [Eek!] ). But if we could get a lenticular that will work for both 2D & 3D, it would be really nice. I also love the idea of being able to show 2D shorts and attractions, then switch to 3D in one shot.

First hurdle I guess is finding a manufacturer, although I am almost sure MDI claimed their silver screen was lenticular. Now if only I could get them to lend me one to try out first. Yea right.

[ 12-21-2005, 04:12 AM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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- posted 12-19-2005 08:36 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Since you're near Brooklyn (I think) why not go over and see what Technikote has to offer since thats where they're at....... Also the LF silver screen from MDI at Thanksgiving Point is a sprayed screen.... definately not lenticuluar. Most manufacturers will send you a screen surface sample at N\C but you first need to know exactly what a real lenticuluar surface is... so Technikote may be good place to start. If they don't have any large quantities left they might still have a sample swatch of it.

Mark

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Richard Hamilton
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From: Evansville, Indiana
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- posted 12-19-2005 08:40 AM      Profile for Richard Hamilton   Email Richard Hamilton   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Frank, Call Franklin Designs at 1-800-467-0641 and ask for Dianne. I just talked to her and she can give you some input. If she doesn't know, she can get you in touch with the screen manufacturers.

Hope this helps, Rick

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John Pytlak
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From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
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- posted 12-19-2005 09:51 AM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You need to be very careful when using a lenticular screen with any fixed pixel array digital projection system --- very easy to get into moire pattern problems as the pixel pattern interacts with the vertical ridges of the lenticular screen.

Screen definitions:

http://www.answers.com/topic/silver-screen

quote:
Excellent for use with low-wattage projectors and the early projected monochromatic images, the silver screen, or silver lenticular (vertically ridged) screen, however, provides narrower horizontal/vertical viewing angles in comparison to its more modern counterparts and tends to color-shift to blue when color images are used, in addition to hot-spotting (the tendency of single source projection to over saturate the screen's center, leaving the peripheries darker). Due to these limitations and the continued innovation of screen materials, the manufacture of silver projection screens was generally phased out, though never fully discontinued, while the term "silver screen" itself continues to be used to refer to projection screens in general and motion picture projection screens in particular.

http://www.projectionscreens.com.au/screen_materials.htm

quote:
Silver/Silver lenticular screens also provide a higher gain, however these screens will cause a colour shift to blue, have a smaller viewing angle and can hot spot. These screens are great for old black and white, low power projectors but not suitable for contemporary projectors. However, this material is still the best medium for 3D projection.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 12-20-2005 05:27 AM      Profile for Frank Angel   Author's Homepage   Email Frank Angel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks guys. This is going to be interesting. I am encouraged by the only time I saw a theatre with a silver screen used for standard 2D was in Kingston NY. We weren't there to see the movie, but to talk to the owner. I was very impressed with the unusually bright image. When I was given a tour of the booth, I asked the projectionist what size xenons were being used given how bright the picture was. It was what I would guess a 30ft width screen. When he told me 1600W, I almost fell over. I asked how that was possible, and he answered they had a silver screen. When I heard that, I looked at it more carefully and was very surprised to see no hot spotting, even as I walked the width of the theatre. And here again, the trick seems to be that the seat rows were much like my theatre, not wider than the screen. If I can get a silver screen to look that good, I would be very happy. We even might have to use those diaphram rings in the projector lenses to drop down the light or defocus the lamps.

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