Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: How to sync DTS to Mono opt. print?

my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

»	Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE » Operations » Film Handlers' Forum » How to sync DTS to Mono opt. print?

Author

Topic: How to sync DTS to Mono opt. print?

Rob J. Buskop
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 111
From: Rotterdam, the Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 01-12-2006 07:51 PM

Problem: We have a nice copy of certain "restored" title, DTS and all, and a far better (image wise) earlier copy with just mono ac. sound. Apart from the obvious possibility to run the 2 prints, sync coupled and have the best of sound and image combined after filling in lost frames for sync, there should be a better, more elegant solution to this.
Has anyone out there heard of a "comparator" technique, where the mono sound is compared/sync matched to the DTS info? Sounds like a good idea, but has it been realised at some time, or is this just an idea that is floating about?
Any comments on this problem would be more than welcome!
Rob J. Buskop.

| IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 01-12-2006 10:39 PM

Karasync?:

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=6695

quote:
Synchronization of Digital Audio Channels to Analog Soundtrack
The synchronizing system simplifies the process of providing digital sound to the cinema. This new technology achieves digital sound while maintaining the use of regular optical or magnetic soundtracks and the standard theater projector. The technology uses the analog and digital audio that are recorded from the same audio master, and thus have very similar audio structures. These structures are continuously compared by the system, and as a result, the digital audio can quickly be correlated and synchronized to the film's soundtrack. The technology is based on U.S. patent 4,839,733, -Method and System for Synchronization of an Auxilliary Sound Source to Motion Picture Film, Videotape or Other Picture Source Containing a Sound Track.-

Preprint Number: 3439 Convention: 93 (September 1992)
Author: Karamon, John J.

| IP: Logged

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-13-2006 07:16 AM

Another option if you can find a DTS timecode generator is to mount a shaft encoder on the projector and use it to drive the timecode generator

| IP: Logged

Bruce Hansen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 847
From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 01-14-2006 04:29 PM

The shaft encorder idea will only work one reel at a time, since the hour number changes reel to reel, and the min. and sec. reset to 0. You would also need to resync each reel to get the audio in sync with the pix to begin with.

You could record the audio on an 8 track recorder with time code, then use the shaft encoder to drive a presetable time code generator that the 8 track would chase, but it would require a LOT of editing of the 8 track tape to get it in sync and keep it in sync. Once you got it right, it would stay in sync, unless you had to splice the film due to damage (and loose a few frames).

| IP: Logged

Rob J. Buskop
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 111
From: Rotterdam, the Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 01-15-2006 02:13 PM

Thank you all for your replies.
It seems to me that the Karasync is THE solution. Have studied the applicable AES publication and the idea to use a mono track source as a locking comparison "time code" is of course pure genius.
Will contact the inventor and hope something is still in existance, since the patent was acquired in 1992 and DTS and DD regenerations of older titles made the system not quite the succes that the inventors had hoped for.
Do hope they are still around and can help me to get underway.
Will keep you posted!

| IP: Logged

Joel N. Weber II
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 115
From: Somerville, MA, USA
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 01-15-2006 06:59 PM

Is getting a lab to copy the images from the old mono print and the DTS timecode from the ``restored'' print not a viable way to end up with a print that would combine the best of both prints? I thought that John Pytlak has been claiming that some of the newer Kodak stocks have very little loss from one generation to the next.

| IP: Logged

John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 01-16-2006 10:39 AM

Making a copy internegative from a release print would be very expensive. Not the best option for image quality either. If the original film has indeed been "restored", a new print from the restored elements would be the best option. However, some "restorations" are nothing more than prints made from old materials, with little done to correct fading or physical damage over the years.

| IP: Logged

Tom Holland
Film Handler

Posts: 15
From: Hidden Hills, CA, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 01-16-2006 11:46 AM

The Karasync system was pure genius. Several years ago I had extensive discussions with the inventor about selling its use to Hollywood, but with repertory cinema on the wane it attracted little interest.

Here's how easily it would work in reality: Let's say a 35mm vintage IB Tech print with mono track wanted to be screened. Prior to the show, the audio track of the same movie's DVD (presumably remixed; multi-channel, Dolby, etc.) would be transferred to a hard drive inside the "black box". As the original optical mono print was projected (splices and all!) the software would instantaneously match up the old audio to the new audio on the hard drive. This would be done by high-speed sampling of the mono track, constantly looking for matches on the updated track. The audience would see the vintage Technicolor image, but seamlessly matched to state-of-the-art sound!

The inventor built a prototype at one point, which he later dismantled. In theory, and setting any potential copyright infrigement issues aside, the unit could be a small rack-mount device with a simple DVD player built in.

As I recall, interest in the original concept (ie. giving older prints better sound) was virtually non-existant in Hollywood... but there were some anti-piracy applications for the patent which were being investigated.

--Tom.

| IP: Logged

Rob J. Buskop
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 111
From: Rotterdam, the Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 01-16-2006 03:36 PM

Yes Tom, that's it! You summed it up beautifully!
Now it seems that the company no longer exists and the phone nrs. are not related to the former company anymore.
The question now is: Where do I find Mr. Chris Karamon??
I've been doing extensive Sherlock Holmes work on this matter, but with no result yet... Where is the man to be found?
Rob.

| IP: Logged

Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 01-16-2006 05:55 PM

The man is, I believe, John Karamon and was once associated with the speakers known as "SoundSphere." Louis

| IP: Logged

Tom Holland
Film Handler

Posts: 15
From: Hidden Hills, CA, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 01-16-2006 09:22 PM

Louis is right. The inventor's name is John Karamon and he called his process KaraSync. As I remember, he lived in Connecticut. Rob, I'll try and locate his address and email you privately. --Tom.

| IP: Logged

William Hooper
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1879
From: Mobile, AL USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-17-2006 05:09 AM

Post what information you can. Frank Angel was looking for a solution like this, & it would be useful information to have standing by.

| IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

Printer-friendly view of this topic

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.