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Author Topic: Dolby Clones Michael Coate Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1904 From: Los Angeles, California Registered: Feb 2001 posted 04-08-2006 06:10 PM                     Who is familiar with "Dolby compatible" cinema processors from Ultra Stereo? How 'bout Kintek, Eprad, Smart, etc? When did these companies begin offering these products? Did any of these or other processors capable of playing matrix-encoded Lt-Rt optical tracks exist before Dolby came on the scene? Anyone work at a theater with non-Dolby-brand equipment...but advertised "Dolby Stereo" presentations anyway?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-08-2006 10:01 PM                     I like most of the techs that have been in the business for some time now have worked with most if not all of those products you listed. To properly answer your question, one has to remember that Dolby came in the Cinema market based on their noise reduction technology, not the surround sound thing. The Dolby 364/E2 system allowed MONO films to have noise reduction with wide bandwidth reproduction with equalized soundheads and speakers. The next processor, the CP100 really was aimed at 70mm venues...again applying noise reduction technology. Surround Sound technology was an OPTION for the CP100. The first step to the "SVA" process was just the three stage channels, not the surround sound technology. There were 5 surround adapters for the CP100 (named SA1-SA5). The SA4 was the final one for just 35mm SVA...the SA5 being only needed for 70mm Stereo Surround. The CP50 was the encono processor that was really Dolby's first entrance into just 35mm optical stereo and again the surround sound technology was not there at first. Ever noticed that the terminal blocks that state "output to surround adapter" and "input from surround adapter"? Dolby's first incarnation of the SVA process not only was just 3-channel but it did some minimal ducking and raising of the center channel (as well as Left/Right) to try a primitive steering of the audio for dialog. But if you play a film with one of these original stereo decoders (Cat 110 for the CP50, Something like the Cat 82 or 84 for the CP100..I forget) and all three stage channels will be playing all of the time. When surround sound came in, it was in the form of the Cat 116 which used the Sansui QS decoder chip. However, the Cat 116 did not communicate with the Cat 110 there were two completely different processes going on here. Dolby did have a delay on the Cat 116 to mask the mistracking of the surround decoding. EPRAD mimicked this model of the system with their StarScope line of products. Early StarScopes even used Cat 22 Dolby cards for the noise reduction. I'm not aware of any steering on the stage channels since they had you set up the Center hotter, particularly in the dialog region with the EQs. Eprad not only forgot the delay on the surrounds but also the volume control for them! Thus, you could turn your volume down to zero the surrounds will STILL be playing! Later units with a triple ganged pot fader to address that problem but it was a LONG time before they added a delay to the surrounds. Eprad's surround decoder also had a nasty on/off gate that when it mistracked (quite often) with have the surrounds cut-in/out on you...it wouldn't have been as bad if they had the delay. In those early years, EPRAD was really the only competitor to Dolby. In fact, a little piece of trivia, the World Premier of Star Trek the Motion Picture played on an EPRAD Starscope at the K-B MacArthur. When Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn opened at the K-B MacArthur, a brand new CP200 was installed for the 70mm presentation (70mm up until that point was still using the old Simplex XL system at that theatre). One of the reasons EPRAD got some positions in our area is that Dolby could not supply CP50s in time for some releases, EPRAD could. It was not just a cost thing. Back then Dolby also had their people scan the newspaper listings for people advertising Dolby Stereo when they did not in fact have Dolby Cinema equipment. Dolby has always been protective of their brand name. One way exhibitors cheated on this is to purchase some Dolby equipment so in a multiplex of say 6 screens, there might be one or two Dolby CP50s and the rest were off brand so Dolby would have to prove that the film was not being shown on the Dolby screens. The company I worked for, K-B Theatres, had a mixture of CP50s and EPRADS and all were mounted in mobile racks that had everything you needed, monitor, amplifiers and processor. Those theatres that were 4-track mag capabile (most of them) had an interface installed so these racks could be patched in. If a Dolby film were to open at one of those theatres, the service company was dispatched to move one of those racks from one theatre to the other (now remember, this was back when Singles were the majority of the theatres and those booths were WAY up there and no elevators...just stairs). It was policy to leave the last reel prepped and ready for the technician to verify the sound system was working properly after the move. Think about it, a tech would go into theatre A after midnight, snatch the Dolby or Eprad rack, schlep it down 3 or more flights of stairs, load it into the van, move it to theatre B, schlep it up 3 or so flights of stairs, hook it up, perform an A and B chain, then run the last reel of the film to verify everything was good. Remember, this was in a time where the Dolby Stereo releases were on the order of 10-20% of all releases...not that many. Rack movement happened mostly during the summer and winter times. I believe Jack Cashin (Ultra Stereo Labs) came from Dolby so they came after. Norm Schneider of SMART was the JBL rep in the 70s but they were there pretty early in the Dolby Stereo times too. Kintek came on the scene around 1980. They were not in the stereo business, they were in the psudostereo business. Remember, 80-90% of all films were mono back then. Thus the sales pitch is that you can use your expensive stereo/surround system 100% of the time, not just 10-20%. Kintek was an outgrowth of dbx. If you look at the original Kintek "3-box" systems (that horrid yellow color), the KT-21 had more than a passing resemblance to the dbx 3BX dynamic range expander. Same package, same knobs, same display. It was refined in its range of expansion and applied the same priciples to films as it did for records (what the 3BX was known for). In fact, this box is still nice thing for running older mono films to provide a bit of single-ended noise reduction and a bit more fuller sound in a modern cinema. The KT22, the stereophonyiser was nothing more than a better than average comb filter box to give the left and right speakers something to do...it did have a connector to have it provide steering between left/right and Center, if you had the KT-24. The KT24 was the surround and Sub Bass unit. This unit was also the best of its kind. This box looked at the signal, determined if it was seeing dialog or music/effects and based on that would turn the surrounds on/off and also tell the KT22 to raise/lower Left/Right to keep the dialog hard center. When the 3-box set up is done well, it does better than it should and far better than other synths that were made by SMART and USL. Kintek didn't have an SVA system until the KT-700 which came out around 1984/85. That did not have the KT750 module available at first either. The KT700 was still a means for a theatre to have 100% use of their sound system. However by 1985 the percentage of stereo films were on the rise. When the KT750 module came out, then I saw them (KT700) going in as stand alone units. So I think I've address most of your questions...Dolby was really first in what we think of as the modern SVA process, the competitors did come out and there were false advertising by some.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 04-08-2006 10:10 PM                        FYI: I sold Norm Schneider (3) CP-50's back in the day. Louis  |  IP: Logged Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 04-09-2006 02:35 AM                       Steve pretty much encapsulated the entire history. I sure can't think of anything to add. You have a good memory.  |  IP: Logged Aaron Sisemore Flaming Ribs beat Reeses Peanut Butter Cups any day! Posts: 3061 From: Rockwall TX USA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 04-09-2006 03:06 AM                     quote: Tim Reed Steve pretty much encapsulated the entire history. I sure can't think of anything to add. ...besides that fact that Dolby, Eprad, Ultra*Stereo, and Smart are still in business, and Kintek is just a memory... -Aaron  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-09-2006 07:49 AM                     quote: Aaron Sisemore ...and Kintek is just a memory... We can all thank god that Kintek was not around in the "Digital era" as their memory would never have worked correctly....  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-09-2006 11:10 AM                     Actually, Kintek was around for the first digital audio presentations...at the Avalon theatre in Washington DC, they used a KT-700 hooked up to a Panasonic PCM digital recorder (used VHS type tapes) to play in sync (via shaft encoder) with the film (Fantasia) with digital audio. This particular system had external 1/3 octave EQs in the rack though covered up to hide them from plain view...since Kintek never claimed anyone needed EQs with their products (back in the KT700 era). I want to say this was around 1986.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-09-2006 12:56 PM                     Eprad got there foot in the door with A Star is Born since Dolby could not supply enough CP50s for the SVA rollout and Eprad used the cat 22 nr card and later there own pin compatable version There first surround crds also used the sanusi chips They also had a stereo card for that version that had the same +/-3db gain riding that the cat 110 did (we had two of them in ontario) We modified them with a ganged pot so all the channels tracked In them they also had 30 band 1/3 octave parametric eq Later ones went to a combined format surround card and a combined 3 band NR and one octave parametric eq (the format card was available later with a synth surround and a delay line and to the end a full gain riding matrix system There last processor was an interesting system called the DSS and was actually very good sounding with both a type and SR NR two digital inputs 1/3 octave EQ and built in crossovers and monitor and excitor/led reader powersupply) all in a massive surface mount card Christie also built a processor that used the Dolby cat 22 card and the matrix used the SQ chipset that Tate was using Rank in the UK had two different processors one had 3 large horizontal cards and a unique patented 2 band NR system There was also a processor made in spain by Wassman and one other in california called the opu360 Also in the eastern block there was a processor as well I believe Ultra started making mag preamp systems for dubbing theatre and branched into processors with the CS line (the one that got the oscar ) I beleive that Jack Cashin had worked at Ampex on the 2" quad tape development at the same time Ray Dolby was there The other US processor was the RGM that used the Burwin DNR system and had 1/2 octave EQ and used descrete opamps to do phase shifting to create there matrix It was often sold as a L/R surround system It was unique as the cards stood vertically and unplugged from the top of the unit  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 04-09-2006 02:22 PM                        I had successfully repressed the knowledge of the RGM processors up until now........removed 7 of them. Louis  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 04-09-2006 02:27 PM                     I installed scores of RGM systems, both L/R/ surround and four channel. RGM also in the 1970's / 80's built all the Simplex mono systems...we later converted most of these to Ultra Stereo units when RGM left the cinema market. The factory did every thing in house...sheet metal, painting, board fabrication and stuffing. RGM is now producing for the luxury boating market with patented products. Cine Services of Belgium made a processor and so did Kelonic - KCS - of Spain. In Latin America there where knock offs of Eprad and Dolby equipment manufactured in Venezuela and Brazil....the most blatant one left the original Eprad copywrite notice when they duplicated the audio boards India has one manufacturer who makes a processor to minic a CP65 and the Chinese had a couple of analog stereo processors. Rank had a processor which after the liquidation of that company, was contracted to Smart by the company that purchased their assets...International Cinema Equipment of Miami. The Rank design ( horizontal main circuit boards ) evolved into other products which Smart is now producing.  |  IP: Logged Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 04-09-2006 02:37 PM                       quote: Richard Fowler RGM is now producing for the luxury boating market That should instill plenty of confidence on the high seas!  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-09-2006 02:38 PM                     quote: Steve Guttag Actually, Kintek was around for the first digital audio presentations... I was thinking more in terms of a fully digital processor or a digital sound on film system .  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 04-09-2006 02:59 PM                     What RGM produces for the luxury and commercial boating market is light years away from cinema equipment....a smaller niche with a high margin of profit We did a demo of Kintek equipment in the late 1970's near Orlando for Florida cinema owners which sounded great... during set-up, Engineer Mike Suttkus demostrated that alterating Kintek settings we could see with not knowledgeable usage, could reproduce soundtracks that would sound like It was also a problem that BSR, the parent of Kintek, marketed the product for the luxury home audio market with different colored face plates and greatly different selling prices  |  IP: Logged Martin McCaffery Film God Posts: 2481 From: Montgomery, AL Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-09-2006 03:04 PM                        quote: Actually, Kintek was around for the first digital audio presentations...at the Avalon theatre in Washington DC, they used a KT-700 hooked up to a Panasonic PCM digital recorder... I want to say this was around 1986. It would have to be a little before that. I was a relief at the Avalon when Fantasia played (I remember being told I was not allowed to take pictures of the equipment, not that I had plans to). I left DC in Nov 1985  |  IP: Logged Bernard Tonks Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 619 From: Cranleigh, Surrey, England Registered: Apr 2001 posted 04-10-2006 10:08 AM                     Here in the UK, a projectionist / engineer developed a SVA system which was called Orbital Stereo with Pyramid speakers, marketed through Cinesales a company established for over 30 years at that time. I went to a trade demonstration held at the Cromwell Cinema in Huntington (home of the Quad amplifiers also used in cinemas). It did work satisfactory but seemed to lack complete NR. It was during the days of Dolby ‘A’ only, and might have been improved by using JPL speakers. Apart from four cinemas, I don’t know if there were many other Orbital Stereo installations. Also went to a trade demonstration of Kintek ‘SR’ with JPL speakers, at the Regent Cinema in Christchurch. The general opinion was, that it was as good as a Dolby system. The installation was done by a well respected retired Westrex engineer. The big mistake was to demo the psudostereo format of a mono James Bond film which was absolutely awful and played far too loud anyway. The above cinemas have since changed to Dolby.  |  IP: Logged

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