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Author Topic: CP200 surround problems (new install) Raymond Watson Film Handler Posts: 26 From: Waldron, Arkansas Registered: Feb 2006 posted 07-23-2006 10:58 AM                     Hi all....... I got a little problem with a cp200. First, a little history, I bought the Scott Theatre a while back and have been putting together equipment as I find deals and bargains on stuff. I am trying to get my sound going, I can only afford SR right now so I got a cp200 with the 560,517's,150e,137L upgraded cards. unit is clean and well cared for and seemed like a deal for $1000 with an SRA5. I put a component eng. reverse scan in my Century MSA, wired it all up and walla sound (not aligned, but never the less sound). I was pleased with myself as I have never even been in another proj. booth besides the one that I own. Now the problem, I have no surround channels on P and Q, The backplane mods on the CP200 are correct, the special 1 mods are correct, the optical format mods were already in place, and correct. I have all channels lighting up the output lights on the 560 L,C,R,S and SW are all putting out. but nothing on P and Q. outs I get sound out of the Surrounds when I connect the Amp. inputs to the SRA5 outputs, but it seems to be all of the sound channels summed in to one. I have adjusted the trim pot on the 517 with no results for the p,q outs. I am an electronics tech, but all of my work has been in the industrial field, I can fumble through this, and get the job done(Except for the alignment, I don't have a RTA, And I will have to borrow an O scope. The nearest cinema techs that I have found are in Memphis TN. and thats 5 hours away. It will cost more to get them to come out than I payed for the unit. I know that I will have to get them out for the alignment, and want it done professionally, I am after the best sound that I can get out of analog SR, but I have to be very money concious as this comes out of my pocket. I need this problem resolved before I call them out to save on tech time. Question #1 Are there any mods that could have been done to the CP200 that would cause this problem? (unit does NOT have an accessory rack) and backplane mods are for a non accessory rack unit. I do not know for sure but I think this unit was used with a DA20. By the way.... I do not know if this unit was working correctly,and got no guarantees for the price. Please don't Raz me over shopping for deals.... and "getting what I paid for" I am a poor pitiful fool that thinks he can buy a 76 year old theatre and make a go of it in a small town .... but it is very cool and a lot of fun. Question #2 does anyone have a complete diagram of the CP200? The one in the diagram manual in the manuals section here is missing. I need the one that shows the complete unit,so I can trace signals...... The old Dolby manuals seem a little vague, Is it just me or what?? I would like to follow the signal to see where I loose it.... but I have no road map.... Question #3 the SRA5... is it supposed to be outputting all tracks summed into one? Remember.... I am like Sgt. Shultz on this stuff... I know nothing.... Qestion #4 I don't have a cat108c... I found a new one but don't know what its worth.... any input on this would be helpful.... and does it make a big difference in the sound.. I would like to have a "bang for your buck" rating here.. my 108 has a modified item sticker on it.... is it a "C" now? as far as mods.. there was another card that was supposed to have two links cut on it..... and they are cut.... I have no spare parts and if I have a bad card I would prefer only to buy that card.... so any help would be greatly appreciated ,that would help me narrow down to one card. I have searched the forums and have not found the answer to my problem. It seems like there a lot of guys in this Forum that loved the 200 and I am growing a fondness for it myself. It is a great piece of equipment that was only discontinued because of production costs and the need of new toys for dealers to sell. for what its worth ...I use new Crown amps... JBL speakers.. 4647 sub and R,C,L are the ones with large Mantary horns and passive crossovers... I don't remember the model number but its the same age as the sub...my surrounds are 8330's (8) I know this is a long post.... I am just trying to get down to the meat of the problem without ya'll having to ask me to tell you something I forgot. I have read til I'm blue in the face.... but now it's time to throw in the towel and ask questions... One more thing..... I only have a bunch of trailers put together... they are 3 to four years old..... DO THEY HAVE SURROUND ENCODED ON THEM? I need to get a reel or two of a SR print to run. SOOOO.. Brad... can you and the boys help me get this F@#$ing thing fixed ..... or what? Thanks Ray  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-23-2006 11:38 AM                     The signal flow diagram here on Film-Tech does have the information you need, last I checked...it is a horrible scan job though...not nearly the resolution needed. For P and Q to be abosolutely dead and you are positive your mods are correct point to one connector...JM24. it is ribbon connector. there MUST be a shunt in there (it will look like a standard IDC connector but without the ribbon. Inside this IDC connector will be jumper wires for P, Q , Le, Re and S. This is for the EQs that would be in the Acc Rack. Failing that, you have the last Cat 141 in the processing unit...for optical formats, it should direct the "S" channel to P and Q as well. If that card is not told to do anything, P and Q will be dead. If optical surround or Magnetic surround are selected, it will send the S signal to P and Q. If magnetic stereo surround are selected, it will look to the Acc rack for P and Q signals. If Optical stereo surround is selected, then it will look to a future input (also will result in no sound). That is about all that could kill P and Q outputs (again presumming that the mods for the 517, 137L and 560 were all done properly. BTW...try format 04 and see if the problem is on that format too. You've lost me on the SRA5 doing any summation of any kind. Lt, Rt in, is Lt and Rt out with or without SR noise reduction applied. Steve  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 07-23-2006 03:30 PM                        CP-200 is a little different than other processors in that many many modifications were made for a lot of reasons. For this reason just following the original block diagram may not lead to success. What you need is for the block diagram with the DA-10 or DA-20 modifications. These were not widely distributed. It has been too many years!! Are there any wires soldered on the backplane from one chassis to another? There should be. My recollection is that is some of the "jumpering" nneded for p/q. The card you have (500 series cards) are not original and require more than just inserting them. Follow Steve's advice. Remember if you show signal present lights on a card working, you are "nearly there." Email me off line. I probably have "all the paperwork," Louis  |  IP: Logged Raymond Watson Film Handler Posts: 26 From: Waldron, Arkansas Registered: Feb 2006 posted 07-23-2006 10:49 PM                     It's fixed !!! Guttag...... you are Da Man! you nailed my problem in 40 minutes after I posted, in the first line of your suggestions. You were on the ball for Sunday... It was the jumper that goes to the accessory unit. One was not supplied with my CP200 , but a little solder dab or 3 and walla.... surround..... thanks Steve.. Send me your address and I will send you some crackers and a bottle of Arkansas wine to go with that cheese.... And Louis..... thanks for the post...... I will be talking to you about those prints very shortly..... so please start diggin' 'em up if or when you can find time. Any prints or out of the blue paperwork on mods made to the CP200, that are not in the manuals section here on F-T will be greatly appreciated from anyone. Now for the 108C question.. It is the only upgrade I can think of that I do not have except to a DA20. What is it worth... I have a new one spotted, but have not been quoted a price yet. he says... whats it worth to ya...... I would like to get a "bang for your buck" rating here .... and also a $ amount that I should offer to purchase it. Also... My 108C has a "modified item" sticker on it...... anyone here know what the mod may have been?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-24-2006 06:29 AM                     A 108C is a worthwhile item. Aside from an improved front-end it has crosstalk supression as compared to earlier designs. Furthermore, it has a ground-plane fill to reduce hum and other noise artifacts. The Cat 108C is a current item and still available. I don't have a price at the top of my head but I would get one if yours is not a genuine Cat 108C. I do not recall a field bulletin for modifying older Cat 108 preamps so I can not say what the modification was for...except to possibly eliminate the aforementioned crosstalk.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-24-2006 08:41 AM                     quote: Steve Guttag I do not recall a field bulletin for modifying older Cat 108 preamps so I can not say what the modification was for...except to possibly eliminate the aforementioned crosstalk. The mod may have been to move the slit loss knee out further for improved correction. Older cards don't set up as well with reverse scan readers. I had this done to a pair of CP-100 solor cell preamps once by a now ex- Dolby employee. Mark  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 07-24-2006 09:43 AM                        The original 108 was able to be flat only to about 10k. In addition to the above, there ARE the changes Steve related. The most worthwhile is the extended high end. (It was previously thought that 10K was about it; later improvements in the recording side of optical have moved the top end out to almost 16k.) With a good LED reader, 16k flat is almost obtainable, usually showing flt up to 12k and one LED low at 16 K.) This is particularly important now that LED readers such as Kelmar, CE and Bay Area are dominant. It is also important in a smaller room where the HF can actually make it to the seat. Louis  |  IP: Logged Raymond Watson Film Handler Posts: 26 From: Waldron, Arkansas Registered: Feb 2006 posted 07-25-2006 02:23 PM                     Thanks guys.... I got the 108c (brand new in the box) for a $100 yesterday and was delivered today.... Like I posted in the first of this thread.. I have the sra5, 2 cat.517's, the 137L in between them, a 150E (?) and the 560 upgrades installed. Now that I have improved range on the upper end reading, and better incoming noise suppression with the cat108C, are there any other things or upgrades I can add to get my CP200 to "be all it can be". I am using a C.E.led reader. I want this 200 to preform to its best capabilities with SR. I cannot fit digital into my budget yet(I am in a market where that will not hurt me) and I want my customers to really enjoy my shows. I have to get my sound on, or above par with anyone remotely close to me. Any suggestions will be appreciated! Another question..... Are my surrounds split? They seem to be awfully close when I listen to them on the booth monitor. But I cant listen to both at the same time. I came out of P and Q (in case anyone was wondering). Good Day......... Ray  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 07-25-2006 11:03 PM                        If you are running optical, you have mono surrounds, even though you may have 2 amplifier channels......you are just that much closer to having digital, which is the only way to get split surrounds. Louis  |  IP: Logged Raymond Watson Film Handler Posts: 26 From: Waldron, Arkansas Registered: Feb 2006 posted 07-26-2006 10:44 AM                     Thanks Louis..... Are split surround channels just not recorded on the SR optical tracks. I really was in hopes of having split surrounds in optical format 5.... but I guess it is not possible. I will start a piggy bank for a BACP reader and a DA20 or equivelant as soon as I get the doors open. I am anxious to hear the difference in a good rev. red reader setup vs digital. I would feel a lot better having a 2 input system, for backup reasons anyway. A quick question on the surrounds: I wired 4 per side with 1,3 and 2,4 paralleled then series together to give 8 ohm out, paying attention to + and - , they are 100w JBL 8330,s. The amps I purchased to drive them only put out 260w/channel @ 8 ohms.(oops) This combination is not driving them hard enough, I already own them and I want to use them for the surrounds. I only use 1 dual amp now and have another dual in the box. question 1... Is this the correct way to wire these surround speakers? question 2... Should I undo the series connection and put 2 paralleled speakers on each amp, and parallel the inputs to the amps? (This spooks me as it gives potential of 400 watts on 2 100w speakers) question 3... Should I just parallel all 4/side for a 2 ohm output max of 550w and just use 1 dual amp? (spooks me again..) I would like to have thoughts and theories,from you guys that do this stuff everyday. (ignorance IS bliss!)................ Ray  |  IP: Logged

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