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Topic: Is DP70 overkill for screening room

Dave Ritchie
Film Handler

Posts: 65
From: Thames, New Zealand
Registered: Oct 2006

posted 01-02-2007 04:21 AM

I have been given the opportunity to buy a DP70 but it wont fit into the screening room that i am in the middle of building- is it worth changing everything around now when it will be mainly dedicated to 35mm - from looking at old posts they are very nice projectors

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 01-02-2007 04:46 AM

You need to chek this screening room plus and this one , to see that it's not an impossibility.

Good luck with your venture - Monte

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Cameron Glendinning
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 845
From: West Ryde, Sydney, NSW Australia
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 01-02-2007 05:33 AM

Its a hard question you post. Is it too tall for your current room or to long or both? Does it come with a lamphouse? red reader sound head ect.

Any philips or kinoton projector tends to be very good in my experience, this however is probably the only model that I have not worked with. I once heard that they are very quiet with 70mm, but not so quiet with 35mm.

I doubt whether there would be any genuine on screen advantage over many brands of smaller 35mm only projectors.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 01-02-2007 05:33 AM

Being that I am the king of overkill, I feel I should chime in here. [Big Grin]

The DP70 brings about lots of problems, so just to irk Mark I will list a few.

First, it is HUGE. Seriously, there is no reason for that damn thing to be so big and heavy.

Second, be prepared to spend some bucks in a BACP analog reader, because the standard optics are CRAP due to an overly wide slit.

While we're talking about that, if you ever wanted to blister a print, just leave the exciter on while the projector is stopped. [Roll Eyes]

You will be forever stuck without being able to run 6000' reels. You can run those 5500' reels, but not true 6000' reels.

Mounting a failsafe isn't impossible, but quite the pain to rig it into the front right corner.

You can't open the door while the machine is running without blocking the picture on screen with most lenses a screening room would be using.

The aperture is a pain to file.

Parts are expensive!!!

I could go on, but suffice to say I had a DP70 in my screening room for about a year and hated that damn thing. My Century JJs put out a phenomenally better picture and win in every other category too. Unless you are getting it for essentially free, don't waste your time.

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Dave Ritchie
Film Handler

Posts: 65
From: Thames, New Zealand
Registered: Oct 2006

posted 01-02-2007 06:17 AM

thanks for the low down - Think my old ernemann will keep it's place for a bit longer yet

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 01-02-2007 09:19 AM

It is the new year and I'm feeling argumentative...

quote: Brad Miller
First, it is HUGE. Seriously, there is no reason for that damn thing to be so big and heavy.

Actually I love its size...makes everything easy to work on. It is easy to keep clean. But as to its weight...it is nice and stable too. Ever set a JJ right on the ground...the damn thing falls right over at the slightest tap. Remember, the AA2 is doing what a Console does today, minus the place for the automation. Its weight goes a long way to its stability.

quote: Brad Miller
Second, be prepared to spend some bucks in a BACP analog reader, because the standard optics are CRAP due to an overly wide slit.

The AA2 analog soundhead was the best for me...always set up perfect and with clean optics, always worked wonderful for me. I'm sorry you had such problems...I never did on any of the ones I worked with. As for modern readers. There are a choice...BACP offers TWO...Kinoton offers both just a red light solution and a soundhead replacement that makes it up to Kinoton basement reader standards (the best, that is).

quote: Brad Miller
While we're talking about that, if you ever wanted to blister a print, just leave the exciter on while the projector is stopped.

Yes, that is certainly possible. Then again, it was designed in an era of exciterlamp changeovers. But going beyond that, Norelco addressed that issue nearly 1/2 a Century ago! Back in 1960, they issued TSI #3 to address this very issue.

quote: Brad Miller
You will be forever stuck without being able to run 6000' reels. You can run those 5500' reels, but not true 6000' reels.

Good...I prefer 2000' reels (your preferences may vary).

quote: Brad Miller
Mounting a failsafe isn't impossible, but quite the pain to rig it into the front right corner.

Again good...the operator should be present at all times, particularly in a screening room. However, nowadays...one could equip it with a modern reflex type IR sensor like the ones used in modern Kinoton projectors.

quote: Brad Miller
You can't open the door while the machine is running without blocking the picture on screen with most lenses a screening room would be using.

You win on that one. Then again, normally all one needs to open the door for is to adjust the tension bands and that does not require it to be fully opened. But a pain with this machine is that the lens is recessed so far back...it restricts the type of lenses that may be used for short focal lengths.

quote: Brad Miller
The aperture is a pain to file.

They are not particularly hard to file...remove the gate and tension bands. They are a little thicker than some but they don't tear you hands up they way some do by constantly inserting and removing the plate. They are way easier than a turreted double or triple plate.

quote:
Parts are expensive!!!

About the only parts one requires are tension bands and the occasional sprocket. If you like the velvet tension bands then they last forever too.

No lie, as a general rule, the AA2 is the least expensive machine to keep running...its gear train almost NEVER needs parts. The incompetent operator will chew up the intermittent sprocket with a tension band that is unsecure. I guess some have inflicked harm by jamming the trap open on the moving shutter...but seriously...just what big expensive parts is anyone going through with these? In the competent hands, they seem to run forever.

BTW...I'm not the biggest AA2 fan...it certainly was the best in its time and it has designs that many machines have tried to follow...kinda like a Tucker for automobiles. For 35/70...I'd definately be much happier with an FP75E though I think the AA2 gear train will still be less expensive to keep up. The FP75E continues the tradition of the 35/70 machine typically having superior 35mm performance than its 35mm only counterpart. This is true of the Century JJ versus the SA or DA. I wish the FP75E had a single shutter but I hear that when they tried it...they had massive bearing failures and then switched to the current double counter rotating shutter design.

Steve

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-02-2007 12:11 PM

quote: Brad Miller
I could go on, but suffice to say I had a DP70 in my screening room for about a year and hated that damn thing.

Brad, I am quite familiar with what you thought was a DP-70. In relaity it was more the remnants of a DP-70. Your machine which unfortunately was obviously poorly maintained by it previous owners and which you eventually sold off to one of our customers was in too bad of condition to put back into service. It was simply stripped for what ever parts were still servicable and those parts have never been used they are are still sitting on a shelf backstage at the America Theater in Casper. I won't go much past what Steve has already summed up very well except to say that 32mm focal length lenses are about as short as one can go with the DP-70, thats darn short.

To get back to the question... Yes, I would absolutely install DP-70's in my screening room if you can accomodate them... I have done so in the past for myself but gave up film collecting many years ago. Thanks to Thomas Haurslev I still own a minty pair of Phillips FP-56's which are like minature versions of the DP-70 inside.

Apparently Paramount Studios, Eastman Kodak, The Directors Guild, American Cinemateque, and many other very heavily used and famous screening rooms also agree they are among the best ever built or these venerable machines would have been removed many years ago. The owners of the close to 90 DP-70's (including the ex Stag Theater machines which now focus properly) that I maintain here in the Mountain States also feel that they are the least expensive machines to operate and will continue to do so till the end of film.

Are they cheap to maintain. Absolutely YES! Especially with our own line of parts available at about 50% the cost of parts from Kinoton. We also have a full Kodalith sheet of the Todd-AO slits if someone HAS to have one but the BACP scanner is overall a very good deal and the sound reproducer continues to function as a no picture area contact sound reproducer. You can also mount a DTS Time Code reader in place of the mag penthouse if need be. This allows a closed loop time code scan for ultra reliable Time Code.

quote: Brad Miller
You can't open the door while the machine is running without blocking the picture on screen with most lenses a screening room would be using.

Many locations run without the door since these projectors run so quietly.

P.S. I will also mention that fine machine tools are always VERY heavy!!

Mark @ CLACO

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Dave Ritchie
Film Handler

Posts: 65
From: Thames, New Zealand
Registered: Oct 2006

posted 01-03-2007 04:01 AM

I've had a better look at this and it seems to run very smoothly have to say I'm very tempted to do the upgrade and move up to to 70mm

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 01-03-2007 04:12 AM

Mark, I've ran 2 other of these beasts and neither impressed me either. The projected picture was simply unacceptable to me. I also saw Gordon's pair running at the IMAX in Toronto a couple of years back and the image wasn't very steady to me on those either. That's not to say that YOURS don't run well. After all I had never seen an acceptable IMAX presentation outside of the OMNI in Fort Worth until I visited Sacramento and 3 locations in Michigan. However even if your machines performed magnificently, I would still hate them for all of the inexcusable design reasons listed above. Give me something modern. At least it won't crack the foundation! [Razz]

Anyway, I just felt like tormenting you since you love those things so much.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 01-03-2007 04:22 AM

quote: Dave Ritchie
I'm very tempted to do the upgrade and move up to to 70mm.

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One strong suggestion is to visit a cinema, or cinemas, if possible, in NZ or elsewhere that contains these units and see for yourself on their operation.

This will be the proving ground that you will need to finalize your decision. You just can't take it all in from what we all said here 100 percent for it wouldn't be fair to you.

Then, you're can make that final decision by actually witnessing their operations - be it "yea", or "nea".

quote: Brad Miller
The projected picture was simply unacceptable to me.

Now, this could bring up an interesting question:

Granted, I'm not in expertise with a lot of various machinery such as the Philips DP70/AA2, Kinoton and such, but I have witnessed 70mm carbon arc and xenon presentations going through AA2's and carbon arc won the presentation factor hands down with me. I wasn't paying too much attention to picture weave, jitter and the alnomalities of what film can do while going through a machine.

Thus, I was impressed with the projected picture as a good light source being of the old carbon arc. Then, when this theatre switched over to xenon, I was sorely disappointed with the projected picture.

Course, this is actually an unfair comparision since this topic is solely to the usage of xenon illumination.

But still, was the ill presented projected picture, the light's fault, or was it duely towards the machine - since these units began their life as carbon arc projectors?

I'm not trying to change minds here, but have to ask this question since the light issue wasn't discussed.

...be like having a great stereo system and crappy speakers. Actually, when one designs a great stereo system, you begin with the speakers and then work backwards.

-Monte

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-03-2007 04:25 AM

Brad,

There are 2 reasons for unsteadiness in the DP-70. 1. Worn or bad gate bands is usually the main culprit. 2. Improper set up of the lateral gyude rollers. You need to use a gauge to set them properly. I made up a copy of the factory gauge and had it calibrated as its quicker to go through and check alot of them on a service visit.

I don't mind being tormented... Its tormenting to work where I do!

Mark

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 01-03-2007 04:41 AM

quote:
Its tormenting to work where I do!

yea, like locations that love to spill film on the floor, unattended. Dealing with theatre M/O's who act like 12 yr olds and have staff that doesn't even know what a projector is, let alone fixing what they muffed up. .. et.al...

-monte

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Dave Ritchie
Film Handler

Posts: 65
From: Thames, New Zealand
Registered: Oct 2006

posted 01-03-2007 05:02 AM

Thanks Monte Seeing them in action is definitely going to be the best way to go - I'll have do a bit of research and see if there are any still running in this country and go for a look- Is there still many movie's being released in the USA on 5/70 , I have been told that there have not been any in commercial use in New Zealand for a fair few years

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-03-2007 03:16 PM

Dave,

Forgot to mention that hopefully these machines do have the interchangable reel shafts and not the older fixed 70mm only shafts.... The latter require 35mm reels with 70mm hubs on them and unless there happens to be a bunch in the booth they can be hard to locate. We do have LOTS of used interchangable shafts and related stuff should you need to convert them.

Mark

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Stephen Furley
Film God

Posts: 3059
From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England
Registered: May 2002

posted 01-03-2007 03:21 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
The latter require 35mm reels with 70mm hubs on them and unless there happens to be a bunch in the booth they can be hard to locate.

I'd forgotton about those things; I haven't seen any of them for years.

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