my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » "Extreme" out of frame lab splices (Page 1)

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2

Author Topic: "Extreme" out of frame lab splices Jon P. Inghram Expert Film Handler Posts: 124 From: Wichita, KS USA Registered: Jan 2007 posted 01-19-2007 09:50 PM                     Has anyone ever seen a lab splice that was actually missing part of a frame so that the movie would have gone out of frame at that point? Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events had a lab splice with a frame on one side that was missing a whole sprocket, we were so impressed that it's still pinned up in projection as a souvenir.  |  IP: Logged Johanna Plascencia Film Handler Posts: 2 From: norwalk, CA, USA Registered: Nov 2005 posted 01-20-2007 01:11 AM                    Never seen that, but i have seen some pretty crazy ones. My favorite one is from NACHO LIBRE. nothing weird about it but Saved it.  |  IP: Logged Darryl Spicer Film God Posts: 3250 From: Lexington, KY, USA Registered: Dec 2000 posted 01-20-2007 01:31 AM                    Don't recall a splice like that but I did have one that caused a processing error that after about a foot and a half past the lab splice the film had put it self in a one sprocket out of frame. Apparently the print stock jumped a sprocket or something during processing.  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-20-2007 02:51 AM                        i had an out-of-frame lab splice in biggie and tupac. in the credits, no less. when i removed it i only checked for a frameline in one direction, so i had to fix it after the screening.  |  IP: Logged Dustin Mitchell Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1865 From: Mondovi, WI, USA Registered: Mar 2000 posted 01-20-2007 07:30 PM                     Aren't lab splices made before the stock is processed so there aren't any framelines? I'm pretty sure its impossible to make an out of frame lab splice. I have seen splices like Daryl describes though.  |  IP: Logged Jon P. Inghram Expert Film Handler Posts: 124 From: Wichita, KS USA Registered: Jan 2007 posted 01-20-2007 09:57 PM                     I'll put a picture up when I get home, and it's actually a whole half frame off, not just one sprocket, just checked.  |  IP: Logged Alex Grueneberg Expert Film Handler Posts: 125 From: Chicago, IL Registered: Aug 2004 posted 01-20-2007 11:23 PM                        Just curious, is it common to request a replacement reel if it has several (more then 1) lab splices on 1st run prints if its not out frame? We seem to get a lot of factory splice ridden prints (mainly on films that have lots of copies, are playing everywhere and are not that good) and I've never been sure how big of an issue it is for an 18 plex. No one seems to complain but it still bothers me.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-21-2007 12:28 AM                     Alex, a lot of large first run complexes cherry pick a set of reels to make an "A" print when they have multiple copies. Just look at the sides of the film roll before you build it and you can usually tell if there is a lab splice in it. That way if you have 3 prints, you have an A, B and C print. One week later when you come off of your first print, ship the C print, etc. Yeah it screws up the CAP code, but does anyone really care? After all, the print can STILL be tracked down to your theater and any future playdates where it might be bootlegged since it is still traceable to the proper print number assuming the MPAA is smart enough to check their dots with the physical print. Most multiplexes don't even bother marking the print number on the tail and just break down a print randomly anyway when there are multiple copies in the building, hence even more of a reason why the MPAA has to go back and verify with the physical print.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 01-21-2007 03:41 AM                     quote: Dustin Mitchell Aren't lab splices made before the stock is processed so there aren't any framelines? I'm pretty sure its impossible to make an out of frame lab splice. The only way I can see that it could happen would be if the print stock slipped a perf as it went round the printing sprocket. I've never seen a modern high-speed printer, but on an older slow continuous printer the printing exposure takes place at a slit as the negative and print stocks pass around a large sprocket, about four inches in diameter; I've never measured one, and it's a long time since I've seen one, but it's about that size. This means that there would be a large number of perforations on the teeth at any time, so I would have thought that for the stock to slip a perf would be unlikely. Unless of course the high-speed printers are designed differently. The diameter of the printing sprocket was fixed by the need for the perforation pitch to be slightly longer on the negative than on the raw print stock due to it having a slightly longer path because of the negative between it and the sprocket. The size of the sprocket was chosen such that the shrinkage of the nitrate negative when processed provided just the required difference. When triacetate stock was introduced, which had much less shrinkage, short pitch perforations were needed in the negative, so that it could be printed on the standard size sprocket. An interesting question arises at this point. Most polyester stock is thinner than triacetate, but if the thickness of the negative is changed on a continuous printer then the diameter of the print stock on the sprocket would be slightly different, and the pitch would be slightly wrong. Are intermediate stocks still made to the same thickness as triacetate ones for this reason, or is the difference so small as to not matter?  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 01-21-2007 05:25 AM                        For bulk release printing, stock is usually supplied to the labs in 6,000 foot lengths. In some setups a loop cabinet in front of the printer enables the feed from the outgoing reel to be stopped while printing continues, so that the head of the incoming reel can be spliced to the tail of the outgoing one. In others printing is stopped while this is done. I believe that it is during the stop/start process that the print stock can be pushed out of rack from the internegative - someone did explain the mechanics of it to me once, but I've now forgotten. Stephen: all the internegative stocks I know of are acetate (Kodak 5272 being the most widespread, I'd guess). Typically, only IPs and release prints are poly. Despite the preserveation issues with triacetate, it is still the base of choice for camera negatives and IPs, because a polyester jam in a camera would cause seriously expensive damage to a very delicate mechanism; and likewise, a jam in a high speed printer could knacker a lot of very expensive print stock. The IPs I've handled don't appear to be any thinner than a typical acetate element (they didn't feel so, at any rate), so I presume you're right and that the difference is so small as to not matter.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-21-2007 08:09 AM                        quote: Brad Miller Alex, a lot of large first run complexes cherry pick a set of reels to make an "A" print when they have multiple copies. Just look at the sides of the film roll before you build it and you can usually tell if there is a lab splice in it. That way if you have 3 prints, you have an A, B and C print. One week later when you come off of your first print, ship the C print, etc. Wow...I guess I'm not the only one who does this after all. Of course, I don't work in any place larger than a 6-plex and it's rare for them to get multiple prints, but I definitely try to put together lab-splice-free prints when I can. I've always been a bit concerned about mixing and matching reels from prints which may have been made at different times or at different labs (and thus may have color or other differences), but that hasn't been a problem thus far.  |  IP: Logged Jon P. Inghram Expert Film Handler Posts: 124 From: Wichita, KS USA Registered: Jan 2007 posted 01-21-2007 12:11 PM                     Here's the picture:  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 01-21-2007 01:29 PM                     That looks almost as if the splice was made after printing; the edges of the film line up, but the sound tracks don't, and the SDDS track changes colour, and the SR-D track changes density, at the splice. The bias lines are sharp right up to the splice; if the stock had somehow managed to jump sideways as the splice went through the printer I would expect them to be blurred at that point. It's almost as if somebody had taken two reject reels, with faults in different parts, and joined the good parts from each, but if that had happened then surely they would have spliced it in frame?  |  IP: Logged Alex Grueneberg Expert Film Handler Posts: 125 From: Chicago, IL Registered: Aug 2004 posted 01-21-2007 08:06 PM                        The DTS time code on the top half looks a little too far right as well maybe. Thanks for bringing this up, I should have known to be checking lab splices.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-21-2007 08:09 PM                     That is a ultrasonic splice made after processing  |  IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2

Printer-friendly view of this topic

Hop To: Select a Forum: Category: Operations -------------------- Digital Cinema Forum Film Handlers' Forum Large Format Forum Ground Level Feature Info, Trailer Attachments & REAL Credit Offsets Category: Community -------------------- Film-Yak Film Handlers' Movie Reviews The Afterlife Bob Maar's Joke-A-Thon Category: Classified -------------------- Equipment and Supplies Wanted/For Sale Help Wanted/Seeking Employment Category: System -------------------- Software Beta Testing Forum

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.