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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Converting Christie with flat gate to curved! (Page 1)

 
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: Converting Christie with flat gate to curved!
Alan Gouger
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 501
From: Bradenton, FL, USA
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 04-16-2007 05:52 PM      Profile for Alan Gouger   Author's Homepage   Email Alan Gouger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have an early Christie with flat gate. This model is pre Ultramittent.
Talking with a Christie tech ( another topic ) from Christie Canada he said he never heard of a flat gate and said it was uncommon and must have been custom ordered. I asked if they had a curved gate, direct bolt on and he said yes so I ordered this from EE in buffalo NY. It arrived today.
While it looks like it will indeed bolt right on and looks like it would work there is only one problem, the upper constant speed sproket assembly is in the way and appears closer to the gate then the new models. It looks like if I could mill part of the front corner of the mount of th gate this would work.
Looking for some in site. The tech was made well aware I had a very early model.
Anyone done anything like this. Id really like to make this work if possible but I know if I attempt to modify the gate in any way it becomes mine perminently.

Thanks!

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 04-16-2007 06:29 PM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Pre Ultramittent? Really? It has a Century intermittent in it? (that is what they used before getting their own. At least Christie ran the oil tube to the top of the projector and put the cap on the outside.

The straight gate Christie was not a special order item...that is how it was born...it was the "First projector designed by a computer." or some such BS they were promoting.

It seems that ALL projector manufacturers MUST start out with straight gates...even those that came out after the invention of the curved gate. And guess what...they all eventually get to the curved gate as a "Eureka!"...if we use a curved gate, the picture will be steaider and an hold focus better. I want to say it took Christie until about 1986 before they adopted it as the norm.

It took Cinemeccanica much longer to allow the V-5 to have a curved gate though they had them on earlier machines like the Vic 8. Again...Eureka!...a steadier picture.

If you go to the manuals section and download the "P-35" manual...you will see your projector and gate though it will have the ultramittent in it as well as the larger Bodine motor (early P-35s had a small motor that was known to fail a bit...as was the larger 1/10HP motor sans start/run capacitors.

If you download the P-35C (guess where the "C" came from) you will see what you are trying to turn your projector in to.

When I was at K-B Theatres, we were an early adopter of the P-35 and regretted it ever sense. I think we have serial numbers 3-7 on the first batch.

When the P-35C came out we were offered one as a Beta test to try and improve the miserable picture steadiness (which varied based on the light run into the P-35...smaller lamps did better than larger ones).

The P-35C did improve things for picture steadiness but they also came with white neoprene belts with steel cords...which were supposed to improve life...net result...they lasted half as long as the cords burst through the belting and cut the thing up. It turns out the cords don't like to be bent back AND forth. Also, the P-35C retained the Ultramittent and the miserable shutter gear box (with either red or green paint on the shaft to denote it was the new design or the new-new design). Between the belts, the shutter boxes and the intermittents...the service on these were significantly higher and more expensive than the Simplexes used thoughout the rest of the chain.

Anyway...when they sent us the P-35...I remember them saying you could not just swap the gate, you had to change out the main septum too and move everything over so they just sent the whole projector. I remember being quite impressed that we swapped the whole projector head, moved the turret over with the lenses still in place and NOTHING had to be realigned...everything it the screen right on the money and I want to say focus was also still right. That was an impressive feat of machining and pinning to accomplish that much accuracy.

If you look at your current machine...you will see that the area around the gate/trap is milled down for the straight gate assembly. If you were to see a P-35C, you will see that it is milled down for that assembly (in addition to some slight sprocket location change as well as a new way to tension the motor belt without having the teeth hit.

So if you just force the curved gate assembly in...it will not sit flat unless you mill the septum plate for a uniform surface where the gate/trap contact. Then there is the other parts that need to move. Good luck.

I think your machine will need to remain a straight gate but if you succeed, congratulations...share what you did with the rest of us.

Steve

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

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From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
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- posted 04-16-2007 06:36 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Heard that AMC was the one circuit that got Christie on the map with their recommendations on a certain kind of projector...maybe someone can fill this story into play...

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Alan Gouger
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 501
From: Bradenton, FL, USA
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 04-16-2007 07:18 PM      Profile for Alan Gouger   Author's Homepage   Email Alan Gouger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well milling the corner of the gate is not an option as you can see but moving the Sprocket assembly is.
The gate does in deed line up quit nicely. The sprocket assembly is mounted to a flat plate held on with 4 screws and removes quit easily. A new hole and I would be up and running. I do not know if the work is worth the end results. It is a sweat gate with duel aperture plates.
Heres a quick pic with the sprocket assembly removed and the gate resting in place. You can see the hole with the sprocket removed reviles in its stock position it is far to close.

-

Steve lots of good information in your post, thank you. Someone told me I have a simplex intermitent but I will find out.
After reading your post I do not think I want to tackle this. If I had a nice work bench with the proper tools I think it would be a fun project but I am not set up for this and would have to get other people involved. Thanks for the input.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

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From: prospect ky usa
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- posted 04-16-2007 07:59 PM      Profile for Louis Bornwasser   Author's Homepage   Email Louis Bornwasser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve's right on except I was told that they used an E7 or Super intermittent. Sorry to say, I sold a lot of these before it became obvious that the quality was not ever going to be good. Louis

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 04-16-2007 08:02 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
it was the "First projector designed by a computer.
Dong! not so... the Ballantune was the first computer designed projector... It must not have been much of a computer though.

That Christie tech sure doesn't know hiz Christies! There is but one guy at Christie that knows them well. The flat gate Christies were all built for AMC and a few others that ordered them at the time. Not good quality Louis??? We have one customer that has an original flat gate Christie running since it was brand new... IT HAS NEVER BEEN OPENED OR TOUCHED! I think this machine sets the definition for "Maintainaince Free" and it even has an Ultramittent... not a Simplex movememnt. Lets see a Simplex or Century pull this stunt! As it's only serial number #32 believe it or not... it still puts out pretty good images but when it goes its really going to go... like into the nearest trash can.

As for your curved trap assy., it cannot... I repeat cannot... be installed on your model Christie. The entire center frame has to be changed to accomnodate the shift of many of the components mounted to it. Also, none of the flat gate or trap components are available new any longer.

I was told by Christie about a year ago that 4 early P35 machines that a customer was still running and that had the goofy reversing gear could not be converted over to the new belt path minus the reversing gear. I told them they are wrong and set about doing it to all 4 of them. The results are below and the machines are still running along very smoothly all 4 on their original Ultramittents.

The before mechanism... Pulley's were shot and grinding up the belts in less than a year. Many of the older style pulleys and asssemblies are not available any more... so they had to either be junked or converted. They did not have the shutter gear box, this being the first model with the belt drive shutter.
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The after mechanism... These now also sport the single blade double speed shutter. Parts cost was about 750.00 per machine, this is alot less than $7,000 for each new projectors. I did the first one in the shop and made placement jigs and did the other three in the field in less than 12 hours. Even the new motor mounts and mount placement are different than the originals! This allows for even belt tension while framing the movement fully up or down. I also drained and re-filled the ultramittents with fresh LaVezzi oil during the overhauls. These machines had just over 10 years on them when they were converted. They will now run till film's end.

-

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Alan Gouger
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 501
From: Bradenton, FL, USA
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 04-16-2007 08:27 PM      Profile for Alan Gouger   Author's Homepage   Email Alan Gouger   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark

That second pic shows what I have. For my use it runs fine but you have me scared parts are scarce. I am finding out you are further ahead buying something newer or something with parts still avail first time around.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

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From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
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- posted 04-16-2007 10:56 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
(oughta see the belt arrangement for the old Christie 35 flat trap, single lens version: just getting that Ultramittent gear and the belt driven drive gear to be in tune is something else. Granted, using the piece of paper to get the gear slop just right works wonders, but to get things in square.....when you do an Ultramittent assembly replaced..)

Oh, how it is fun lacing up the belts in the back of a P35 when the motor doesn't swing out ....

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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- posted 04-17-2007 08:01 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alan,

Actually yours is still very different since you have the shutter gearbox and your upper sprocket is in a completely different location. These machines had curved traps from day 1. You can still get gearbox's although they are pretty damed expensive... around $500.00. But some of the timming pulleys in yours are also obsolete as they were in the machines that I converted.

Mark

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 04-17-2007 08:37 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'll concede that the intermittent was probably a Super and not the Century...especially now that I look at it...I'd very surprised if it was an E7 though.

As to the first computer design...Christie didn't advertise it like it was designed on a computer...but that it was somehow designed by a computer (not a person). We used to joke that it had to be the first thinking computer because it would constantly look at what it had done then proclaim "that doesn't work" and redesign it again, and again, and again.

The Ballantyne may have been designed on a computer (odd since its original manual was drawn by a child in a more comic book fashion) but it was an attempt to copy the Philips/Kinoton FP20...which Ballantyne was the importer, in the early days.

As to the straight gate P-35s...while AMC may have indeed influenced their production...they were not made "for" AMC...that was Christie's projector offering in the early 1980s, period...anyone ordering them got them. The local Standard Theatre Supply guy, Norman Bonaparte really pushed the heck out of them and that is how K-B and Circle theatres in the DC-Metro area got them. STS didn't supply AMC...National Cinema Supply had the AMC account.

I believe every single one of them have been retired by now and most didn't make it to their 10th birthday.

As to Simplexs going as long as a P35...oh there are many an XL head that have had nothing more than oil changes and have been going far longer than even Mark's P-35.

Don't even get me started on the number of motors, reversing gears, shutter gear boxes and Ultramittents I've changed out over the years I've had to deal with this projector. It was by far the most expensive machine to maintain of any I've had to deal with.

Have they improved it? Yes constantly...but it had a LONG LONG way to go. And it isn't a simple matter of upgrading an existing projector...there are just so many things one may do to an older machine. Oddly enough, I don't think of a projector made in 1985 (I think that was the last year for the straight P-35) as that old...yet wearing parts are now obsolete on it.

Probably the niftiest item Christie had for the machine was their single lens holder...very precise focusing can be had with it and very positive lens registration. Christie continues to have the best machining of the bunch.

Steve

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Robert Throop
Master Film Handler

Posts: 412
From: Vernon, NY USA
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 04-17-2007 09:42 AM      Profile for Robert Throop   Email Robert Throop   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was once told that the original Christies were designed and built by Andy Marglin of Kelmar and that they used Super intermittents.
Bob

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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- posted 04-17-2007 10:37 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Steve Guttag
Oddly enough, I don't think of a projector made in 1985 (I think that was the last year for the straight P-35) as that old...yet wearing parts are now obsolete on it.
Christie is as famous for their projector upgrades as is Strong for all their versions of the X-L gate and trap... very few of which actually work well. The version of the gate with its split in the middle pressure pads has got to be the very worst of the bunch, parts are non-existant and no one at Strong knows anything about it(supposedly). Lets talk automation... Strong blew it big time here too until they got in bed with EPRAD. Strong also went through way too many versions of a two lens turrett and the present one is adaquate but still not 100%. I would call it a tie between Strong and Christie on the number of goof ups and mods over the same number of years... Indeed Strong may hold the actual record there but I'll call it even.

quote: Steve Guttag
As to Simplexs going as long as a P35...oh there are many an XL head that have had nothing more than oil changes and have been going far longer than even Mark's P-35.
I agree but in all fairness this Christie has not had its oil changed in its lifetime. Try that with an X-L and it might run a couple of years... the oil would have all leaked out by then. For some reason or other the casing of the Ultramittents just don't leak at all... seals aside. Its cast iron but must be really fine grained cast iron or treated somehow. BTW: It is possible and very easy to change out the oil in an Ultramittent. I generally reccomend it and do it for my customers every three years. This may have contributed to many of the Ultramittents out there going on 11 years of continous use. This also says alot for the use of LaVezzi oil.

Bob is correct... the first ones were built by Andy, they also made the turrett. The amazing thing is that Christie has held machining to unbelievably tight tolerances over the years...never deviating from this at all. They make other manufacturers in this industry look sick by comparison. The only other one that could give any real competition in this department is Kinoton.

Mark

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

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From: Toronto Ontario Canada
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- posted 04-17-2007 04:58 PM      Profile for Gordon McLeod   Email Gordon McLeod   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually the pro 35 is more of a DP75 copy than a fp20 copy

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

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From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
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- posted 04-17-2007 05:31 PM      Profile for Monte L Fullmer   Email Monte L Fullmer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There's a flat gate, single lens Christie still in operation with a SH-10 console behind it here in my area. I think the serial No. is in the 300's or something...I'll have to check when I visit this small theatre next time.

Only thing I've done to it was replace the bowtie shutter drive assembly, and an Ultramittent replacement...outside of the usual belt replacements..
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
The version of the gate with its split in the middle pressure pads has got to be the very worst of the bunch
...Mark, is that the studio gate version?

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Mark Gulbrandsen
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From: Music City
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- posted 04-17-2007 10:40 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Gordon McLeod
Actually the pro 35 is more of a DP75 copy than a fp20 copy
Actually you'd be surprised to find out that Strong has discontinued many of the parts for Pro?-35's... including many of the gate and trap and lens mount castings and components... Personally, I've spent the last 27 years trying to figure out where the Pro part is in the Pro?-35.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
...Mark, is that the studio gate version?
No, Its the split/overlapping gate... I think they were originally made for Cineplex but not 100% sure. They seem to be in many Cinepklex sites that had straight gates and I've never seen em anywhere else.

Mark

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