Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Century MSC or Simplex Apogee what's the better pick?

my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

»	Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE » Operations » Film Handlers' Forum » Century MSC or Simplex Apogee what's the better pick? (Page 1)

This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6

Author

Topic: Century MSC or Simplex Apogee what's the better pick?

Michael Moore
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 188
From: Dover, DE / USA
Registered: Jun 2006

posted 05-07-2007 12:31 PM

I have the opportunity in about six months to get to select a new projector. I was told we have to buy from one of the venders on our list for reasons I do not know. However I have been quoted from two places the price on a new Simplex Apogee and the Century MSC projector with lens turret. I was also quoted a price on a refurbished XL and a Refurbished older Century. Out of all of these listed which would any of you pick and why?

I have read some of the comments on the apogee and got the idea to stay away. However I have not seen a post on the Century MSC (newest model).

Thank you

Mike Moore

| IP: Logged

Mitchell Dvoskin
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1869
From: West Milford, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 05-07-2007 12:39 PM

Nothing beats a restored Simplex XL...

| IP: Logged

Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-07-2007 01:01 PM

I would go for the used X-L (with SH-1000 or 5-star) or used Century C or SA/MSA (with R-3 or MR-3, as appropriate).

Since your venue (apparently) only runs film occasionally (based on your comments in another thread), funds are probably limited and you are probably dependent upon several part-time operators. Since you won't be putting as much mileage on the meachines as a full-time cinema, rebuilt equipment will save money and should last for many years; also, your operators are probably already familiar with Century and Simplex equipment (vs. something more exotic). Be sure to budget for spare parts and periodic maintenance.

I haven't seen the Apogee, but I have a difficult time believing that it is so much better than rebuilt older equipment to be worth the price premium of buying new and the possible training issues associated with something nonstandard.

If you must buy new, consider the Kinoton PK-60D. It should be price-competitive with the Simplex and Century machines.

| IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-07-2007 01:21 PM

To be honest don't buy anything new!! Get a rebuilt Century from someone like Louis. You will never have trouble getting parts for them. Way too many problems with Apogee. I'm not a big fan of older X-L's either... leaky pieces of crap... VERY porus castings of VERY poor quality and too many die cast parts that eventually stretch out of shape... like the lens mount, lens bushings and the weak lower bearing retainer on the vert. shaft assy. that can crack all too easy... the bushings on the sprocket shafts that plug up with crap over the years... I could go on and on. They are good running machines but no near opponent for a well running Super with Posi-Trol Sprockets installed.

From the latest pricing I've seen Kinoton is no longer very price competetive. If you go Kinoton be sure to buy alot of extra plastic parts to have around, but they are the best on-screen machines, stay away from the electronic version... The ones around this area are way too film fussy.

Mark

| IP: Logged

Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 05-07-2007 01:37 PM

....P35GPS from Christie...good machines as well...esp since they've modified the drive train and misc. hardware inside...

| IP: Logged

Robert Throop
Master Film Handler

Posts: 412
From: Vernon, NY USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-07-2007 04:12 PM

Since you're a performing arts center you might want to consider changeover operation rather than a platter for these reasons:
1- If you're only showing a film once it's silly to spend time making up and tearing down a print.
2- Many archives refuse to loan films for platter operation.
Bob

| IP: Logged

Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-07-2007 04:51 PM

If it refurbished I would recomend FP20 machines one cannot beat them for a good image
otherwise Victoria 5

| IP: Logged

Michael Moore
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 188
From: Dover, DE / USA
Registered: Jun 2006

posted 05-07-2007 05:45 PM

We have two projectors however projector 2 was taken out of service to feed projector 1 when we were showing films longer then a week. I for one did changeovers for a while but we showed bowling for columbine for 4 weeks strait 3 days a week I start using the platter.

I am the only projectionist who knows how to do reel to reel in our booth, not that it's hard or anything like that but the other two guys are scared to do it.

In the future I want to get back to two projector work.

By the way the current committee who picks the film refuses to pick films that are not older then 1 year. They also refuse to pick historic, archival prints, they want to wacky foreign films that are in strange formats, like the film says international flat, and it is much smaller on the screen. Stuff like that drives me nuts.

For now we will only have the budget for one new projector.

However for the future I'm not always going to be here at the theater and the Board of Directors really wants the whole thing to be turn key for students from the two local colleges to start learning in. So I'm thinking of that for the future as well.

Mike

| IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-07-2007 05:58 PM

Naturally, I'm a Kinoton proponent. Pricing has been tough since there is a 35% Euro to Dollar conversion...in a market where profits are not allowed to be anywhere near that! So yes, they will be pricey as compared to domestic models. They are, never the less, the best machines out there...steadiest pictures and best sound reproducers (current versions...I'm no fan of the older sound head modules...way too small an impedance drum and can get very fluttery very easily...they fixed that on current units).

Simplex and Century speak for themselves...they've been in continious operation for over a half Century now. I disagree with Mark's post (most all of it) though there is not denying that with Simplex you will get some seepage. The older castings are indeed more porous. However, one can normally get a superior image/sound from an older head than a newer one. One can certainly change out the lens mount without too much fuss either.

The Century is a cement mixer...a non-precision machine that seems to curn out movies day in and day out.

I've always preferred Simplex to Century though a Century JJ can do very well on 35mm, picture wise.

As for Kinoton...I don't know what Mark is so worried about with the Delrin gates/skates...they are in expensive and each year when you replace them, it is like having a brand new projector again with all new gate components. Note, the runner strips, like the Century "C", you get two cracks at them by transposing the sides. The gear train is pretty darn simple with a bicycle chain to link the sprockets to the intermittent. They also won't piss oil all over the place like a Super.

The PK60s have proven to be the most reliable and least expensive projector to keep running. We have many of them out there and they just seem to go and go. They are quiet too. Remember, you only have to buy the machines once, you have to live with them for a long time. Initial price should not be the only concern. You are not going to get a Mercedes at Cheverolet prices.

As for the Kinoton E projectors...Mark is just plain wrong...I service probably as many or more than anyone on them...and they are in places that run ALL types of films...new, old, cut up or prestine...in all cases they really spank all other projectors in steadiness. The new "Premier" versions are said to be 4-5 times steadier than previous "E" projectors which in an of itself could mean increasing picture resolution significantly since the image is steadier in the gate (in excess of 100 l/mm). If you are having problems with FP30/30Es being fussy with film, it is the technician or the projectionist, not the projector.

Nobody believes in the 2-projector concept as much as me so I would agree with Robert on this one.

Steve

| IP: Logged

Bill Enos
Film God

Posts: 2081
From: Richmond, Virginia, USA
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 05-07-2007 07:36 PM

Any of the equipment named above, starting out in reasonably good condition will probably see you to the end of film.

| IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-07-2007 07:42 PM

quote: Mitchell Dvoskin
Nothing beats a restored Simplex XL...

quote: Steve Guttag
However, one can normally get a superior image/sound from an older head than a newer one.

Ok Mitchell and Steve... Lets explore why older Simplex's might be better...

A. They have quite inferior/extremely porus main castings which are not heat treated.

B. Almost none of them still have those super high quality made by Simplex Stars and cams that made them such rock steady machines when they came out. Todays Stars and cams are crap comparatively.

C. Sure you can replace the stretched out lens mount and lens bushings in a jiffy or two(plus labor)... expensive parts too... but off hand I can't think of another projector with this problem... Brenkert possibly.

D. All of the super high quality made by Simplex rubber shock mounted gearing has since been replaced with solid hub phenolic or composite gearing due to rubber deterioation. This allows for higher operating noise levels and more vibration.

E. All the film path parts today are newer parts made by either LaVezzi or Wolk. They're not quite as well made as the original Simplex parts but are pretty good overall.

F. The need to replace most shutter housings and back covers because they buckled under heat from old arc lamps... also expensive parts.

G. The need to replace those buckled and leaky die cast gear compartment doors... another expensive part.

H. The primitave bushing system on the upper and lower sprocket shafts. The shafts always clog with bronze particles and film gunk over the years.

While Steve can say these older Simplex's are the best made he is forgetting that there are few to none of the original parts on most of them, and its those old parts that made them good machines [thumbsup]

. The good is gone Mitchell and Steve... Sorry, rebuild one with todays parts and end up with the same performance as a new one!

quote: Steve Guttag
I service probably as many or more than anyone on them...and they are in places that run ALL types of films...new, old, cut up or prestine...in all cases they really spank all other projectors in steadiness.

I find it amusing that you admit that you even have to service today's electronic machine, in fact almost hilarious. The most in service I did on the RCA electronic machines was replace a blown fuse and go through the servo alignment procedure... considering all the analog circuitry in them they were amazingly stable.

The 2-projector booth for this guy is a good idea.

Mark

| IP: Logged

Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-07-2007 08:49 PM

Sorry Mark...unlike Century...most of our old Simplexes are still running the old gear trains....yes the shutter drive gears, if the old rubber shock mounted are often replaced by now (if not all)...but that is about it.

I don't know too many that run Simplexes that feel the need to rip out their lens mounts. Though if you want current Strong lens adapters to fit, you should consider it. On a small percentage, I've found enough slop in the focusing rack to warrent it. As compared to Century which is nothing if not sloppy...Simplex running 50 or so years owes nobody nothing.

As to your humor on the Kinoton FP30Es...I guess you can chuckle over symantics since you have no facts to back things up. By service I mean have under my care and/or have sold. About all they need are check on the belts, Orings (pinch roller and flywheel accelerator for rock-n-roll machines) and brushes for the frictions every few thousand hours of use and the dreaded delrin skates every year...big deal. They are STILL cheaper than most any other projector to keep. It is not like they are losing major components or showing signs of increasing sloppiness.

[edited to remove OT bickering...SG]

[ 05-08-2007, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Steve Guttag ]

| IP: Logged

Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-07-2007 09:23 PM

quote: Steve Guttag
Sorry Mark...unlike Century...most of our old Simplexes are still running the old gear trains....yes the shutter drive gears, if the old rubber shock mounted are often replaced by now (if not all)...but that is about it.

Personally both my customers and I prefer reliability to the possibility of loosing a show because someone left the old rubber mounted gears in place. They make for a smooth running machine but the loss of a show is not woth it. BTW: there were three of them on each X-L.

quote: Steve Guttag
I guess you can chuckle over symantics since you have no facts to back things up.

Ahh wrong again. I can definately back up these claims as well as introduce you to others that have operated and installed them with poor/inconsistant results. I'm not willing to do it here out of respect to the customers that are stuck with them.

Don't know what it is about the 650... it's last few years of gestations sound great... much better than 5 or 6 years ago, but so does the JSD-80 for the most part and it has a few advantages that the 650 doesn't. For those needing just the B chain for D.C. or digital audio playback the USL is tough to beat.

Mark

| IP: Logged

Michael Moore
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 188
From: Dover, DE / USA
Registered: Jun 2006

posted 05-07-2007 11:21 PM

I'm tired of the pissing match, I just want good advice and not all this! What I could extract form what Steve says and Mark says and what all of you have said is not much. Fragments of rants. I was just looking for help. sorry to bring this one up. Only good confirmation I got was "yes good idea to put in two projectors instead of just one". I know this... I'm really confused [Confused]

Mike

| IP: Logged

Sam D. Chavez
Film God

Posts: 2153
From: Martinez, CA USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 05-07-2007 11:36 PM

Now Children! Time Out.

It's always fun to see two opinionated guys go at it.

| IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

This topic comprises 6 pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6

Printer-friendly view of this topic

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.