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Author Topic: kinoton pk-60 vertical unsteadiness Samuel Andrew Wetzel Film Handler Posts: 16 From: Appleton, Wisconsin, USA Registered: Apr 2006 posted 07-26-2007 12:30 AM                     the theatre i work at has one kinoton pk-60 projector, strong highlight II lamphouse and strong ap3 platter system. there is noticable vertical unsteadiness on both flat and scope. this unsteadiness is much more noticable on flat films, due to the smaller image size of the flat format (as far as i can tell). when i run test film...such as RP-40 the image is stable, however, when an actual movie is shown the shaking is noticable even to our customers. adjusting the gate tension seems to have little, if any effect on reducing the shaking. since the test film is rock solid on screen i would imagine any unsteadiness would be due to variations in the film stock...basically i'm just checking to see if anyone has any other ideas on possible causes to the unsteadiness...or if there's something in particular i should do or check. [ 07-28-2007, 03:33 AM: Message edited by: Samuel Andrew Wetzel ]  |  IP: Logged Jeremy Weigel Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1062 From: Edmond, OK, USA Registered: Mar 2007 posted 07-26-2007 01:08 AM                     Is this on all prints played thru this machine or has it surfaced with the current print?  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-26-2007 03:00 AM                     Are you using any form of print lubrication, or are you running the films dry? Also, make a loop out of a Buena Vista, Universal or Warner Bros trailer green band. (Don't use other film studio's trailers because they will be printed bouncy.) Thread it up and hit the screen with it. It is steady, at least very close to the PA35? If it is steady, you have a heat problem. (After a couple of minutes the projector is heating up and damaging the intermittent coupler.)  |  IP: Logged Samuel Andrew Wetzel Film Handler Posts: 16 From: Appleton, Wisconsin, USA Registered: Apr 2006 posted 07-27-2007 03:22 AM                     jeremy, the vertical unsteadiness is consistant among both formats...it's most noticable with the flat format however. brad, when the pk-60d was installed it was installed without the bracket to mount a film-cleaner. i took a bracket from a different house to run film-guard on the prints. i've seen it work miracles in our houses, so hopefully this one won't be any different! i'll be in the booth tomorrow night so i'll run it lubricated (as well as check your other suggestions). i'll let you know how it turns out...i hadn't even thought about the possibility of the heating issue. we're running a 6k lamp with water cooling of course, and our cooler doesn't always seem like it's working at optimal efficiency.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-27-2007 04:31 AM                     Press against the skate when the image is jumping. Does the film get steadier? You may simply need to increase the skate tension. Also note that if the skate isn't in the correct position vertically (check the manual for the adjustment procedure), you will have vertical unsteadiness. Finally, to burn a Strong 6K lamp behind a PK60, not only do you have to have a properly running water circulator, but you also HAVE to have a heat filter in between the gate and lamp too.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-27-2007 08:26 AM                     Oh my...6K. Yes a heat filter is REQUIRED from any lamphouse. You will emboss the film. Check the condition of the skate and runner strips...particularly around the aperture. The runner strips are probably cooked (turned brittle). They can be reversed (trade left for right and vice-versa) to get a second life...they are mirror images just like on the old Century C straight gates. In addition to what Brad suggested also try a new skate and it must be properly adjusted. Steve  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-27-2007 12:53 PM                     Oh yeah, I forgot about the plastic runners. Buy a set of the steel runners. They will never, ever need replacing again and from everything I've seen will cut down the shedding over what you see on the plastic runners. Just wait until the circulator pump goes south one day and your aperture gets melted to the plastic runners. Then you will be wishing you had installed the metal ones!  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-27-2007 02:57 PM                     quote: Brad Miller They will never, ever need replacing again Actually I had an FP-20 that had come with the steel runners. They last longer but I had to eventually replace them too. Once they become grooved the film seems to want to wander laterally. Granted they do last alot longer though... mine though 4 skates. 1 new skate for each new side of the runners. I went back to the plastic ones because they are lower friction but I was only running 1600 watts behind it. Also, when you frame the projector and look at the intermittent sprocket do you see it moving laterally at all. I've also replaced the bronze couplings in a number of the FP series machines which is basically the same design as yours. Like a Ballantyne the Kinoton will also jump when the coupler is worn. Mark  |  IP: Logged Randy Bowden Expert Film Handler Posts: 146 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Aug 2000 posted 07-28-2007 01:08 PM                     AH the pk 60. You most likely have a worn out framing bushing, it is typical for the picture to look steady when the machine is running cold, but give it about 15 min. or so and the bounce will start or you could just run the rp 40 as soon as the show drops. That is definitely the symptom of a worn bushing. The film trap in the pk 60 is directly coupled to the intermittent sprocket shaft, so heat is easily transferred to the framing bushing. In my opinin you MUST have a heat filter installed in the lamphouse, do not rely on water cooling alone. We have a local 8 screen theatre that is running all pk 60 machines. 2 of the 8 machines are running 3k lamps while the rest 2k all on slc consoles. I have noticed that the 3k machines were going through framing bushings quicker, until recently we installed the heat filters.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-28-2007 06:19 PM                     I wonder if they changed the material the couplings are made of?? Generally even with the older machines you don't have this sort of problem unless it has has many tens of thousands of hours of use. Mark  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 07-28-2007 06:33 PM                     I have asked MiT to make replacement couplers a few times for the PK60 out of a more durable material that can withstand heat better. Hopefully they are working on it, because that is definitely a weak link in Kinoton's otherwise quite well designed machine.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-28-2007 09:46 PM                     Brad, What are they makin them out of these days? The ones I;ve replaced... in FP-20's and Dp-75's were always bronze. Mark  |  IP: Logged Randy Bowden Expert Film Handler Posts: 146 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Aug 2000 posted 07-29-2007 01:33 AM                     Mark, they are definitely not made out of bronze any more, they seem to be using about the same plastic material found in the Pro-35 coupler, it's too bad because I like the machine otherwise. I remember the first time I removed one of these and thinking, what happend to using metal?  |  IP: Logged Tim Asten Film Handler Posts: 98 From: Brighton, United Kingdom Registered: Nov 2006 posted 07-29-2007 06:06 AM                     About a third of our 15 FP40 mechs are affected by worn racking bushings. The unsteady pictures are sometimes accompanied by noisy running. However we've found that if you tweak the racking handle slightly one way or the other to take up the slack in the bushing this sometimes gives a temporary cure with smoother running. If you tweak the handle with no film in the gate you can actually see the intermittent sprocket moving slightly sideways hence I assume the rough running. All this though is no substitute for new bushings. On a side note though much is made about Kinotons intermittents giving more stable running through direct drive but if you have to have a bushing that allows adjustment for racking, it ceases to be direct drive anymore. Yes? No? what does everybody think.?  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-29-2007 08:44 AM                     quote: Randy Bowden Mark, they are definitely not made out of bronze any more, they seem to be using about the same plastic material found in the Pro-35 coupler, it's too bad because I like the machine otherwise. I remember the first time I removed one of these and thinking, what happend to using metal? Thats sad really! A great machine and switching to a just a ten cent part to bring it down! A film pileup is all it would take to put a good blow on a plastic coupler and damage it. That sheds more light on what the guys at Cinemark said to me. Personally, If I were installing many of these machines I would be sending a new sample to LaVezzi for a quote made from bronze like the old ones were!! The old couplers lasted many decades typically! Thay have never been unreasonable for any of the parts we've had them make and there is no better quality available. You also don't have to order huge quantities... 50, 75, 100 or more and the price goes down stbstantially at just 100 pieces. The lead time is just a bit long though, typically 10 weeks minimum... they are always very busy. Wolk can also quote a part like this. Their quality is not that of LaVezzi but does seem to be getting better all the time. Mark  |  IP: Logged

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