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Author Topic: Technical Film Systems 35mm FIlm Cleaning Machine Steve Beverly Film Handler Posts: 83 From: El Paso, Tx., Registered: Nov 2007 posted 02-09-2008 11:20 PM                     I just bought a Technical Film Systems 35mm Model FC-4000 Film Cleaning Machine last month. I wanted to get some information on this beast. I know from the description, it uses distilled water to clean the film is from the 1990s and originally cost over 50K. I also know Technical Film Systems doesn't make them anymore (or any other film cleaning machine of any kind) and hasn't supported them for the last 7 years. I bought this because we have a REAL problem with dust here in El Paso, which is the desert winds blow dust EVERYWHERE so I needed a machine that would thoroughly clean film. Has anyone ever used one of these things before any any chance in Hell there's a manual available for one somewhere out there? Thanks-Steve  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 02-09-2008 11:48 PM                     Forgive the ignorance, but I truly do not understand. Wouldn't distilled water dissolve the emulsion? And why would anyone pay $50,000 for a film cleaner when they can buy a Kelmar cleaner for around $500? A Kelmar cleaner paired with Film-Guard will solve your dust problem.  |  IP: Logged Steve Beverly Film Handler Posts: 83 From: El Paso, Tx., Registered: Nov 2007 posted 02-10-2008 12:20 AM                     quote: Ken Lackner why would anyone pay $50,000 for a film cleaner when they can buy a Kelmar cleaner for around $500? I don't know, maybe that's why they quit making them. I didn't pay 50 grand, but I seriously doubt that a 50 grand film cleaning machine would dissolve film emulsion, I think the R&D department of Technical Film Systems woulda caught THAT ONE before they started selling them for 50 grand, HOWEVER if it did, I would expect there'd be some sort of price discount on 'em. I was planning to use a Kelmar, or something equivalent, in addition to this as well. You REALLY don't understand the dust problem we have here.  |  IP: Logged Chris Slycord Film God Posts: 2986 From: 퍼항시, 경상푹도, South Korea Registered: Mar 2007 posted 02-10-2008 01:54 AM                     Why would you buy the thing BEFORE asking about it? Heck, I seem to remember you doing this with your projector setup... having people give you pointers causing you to back pedal and change it after you'd already done the order. Not trying to be mean but just asking.  |  IP: Logged Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 02-10-2008 02:59 AM                       Surprise! Film has changed. Positive prints, intermediates, and soundtrack negative are now on polyester stock, which doesn't like water.  |  IP: Logged Max Biela Film Handler Posts: 89 From: Dortmund, Germany Registered: Sep 2003 posted 02-10-2008 03:56 AM                     Actually, it is the emulsion that doesn't like water, not the base  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 02-10-2008 05:32 AM                     Water doesn't harm film, as long as it's carefully handled while wet, and fully dried before being wound up. There's plenty of water used in processing the stuff.  |  IP: Logged Max Biela Film Handler Posts: 89 From: Dortmund, Germany Registered: Sep 2003 posted 02-10-2008 05:50 AM                     Yes, my point was that water doesn't do anything to the base (acetat, polyester or whatever, it just plastic) while the emulsion is getting soft.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 02-10-2008 07:30 AM                     Yes, I find Tim's response rather puzzling; if anything, polyester should have even less of a problem with water than other bases; water, in the form of high humidity over a long period, can affect bases made of nitrate and the acetates, but as far as I'm aware, not polyester. The only possible problem that I can think of which could be worse with polyester is that the emulsion is less securely bound to the base, and therefore more likely to be removed while wet and soft. However, polyester film survives processing. I'm not that familiar with the motion picture processes, but other than sound track re-development and backing removal, where these are used, I think that they're quite similar to the processes used for still film. Since C41 replaced C22, sometime in the '70s, colour film has been processed at high temperatures, around 38C (100F), and even water at these temperatures does not harm the film. I don't know how this cleaner works; does it use physical treatment of the film, wiping, brushing etc. while it is wet, or is it ultrasonic?  |  IP: Logged Kenneth Wuepper Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1026 From: Saginaw, MI, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-10-2008 08:26 AM                     Hello Steve, Well, I think you have a real piece of history there. As I recall, our school system had one of these machines for cleaning their 16mm collection. The machine was very reliable but you had to be sure not to let it become unlaced or it took almost as long to reload as it did to clean the film. The solvent is in contact with the film for only a matter of seconds in the lower chamber of the cleaner cabinet. After applying the solvent, there is another area with compressed air "knives" that remove the liquid and particles loosened from the film. This is much like the way the car wash removes most of the water from you car. The film is then run into the second chamber where there is a giant accumulator. The film is payed out between the two rows of rollers and the lower set of rollers can move to accommodate the length of film needed to fill the cabinet. Once the accumulator is full, the take-up begins and warm dry and filtered air is used to remove all of the remaining moisture from the film. Sorry but the media center disposed of their machine many years ago so I don't have any more to offer in the way of specifics. KEN  |  IP: Logged Sean McKinnon Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1712 From: Peabody Massachusetts Registered: Sep 2000 posted 02-10-2008 10:01 AM                        I wonder if you could use Film-Guard in this machine instead of distilled water... It kind of seems like way way way too much overkill for a cinema but to each thier own  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 02-10-2008 10:08 AM                     The cleaner was originally meant for cleaning negatives before printing. It should: Clean the film with water jets, dry the film, and wind it back onto the core ready to go onto the printer. Since it uses Air KNives similar to what is used in a processing machine it shouldn't be any more dangerous to clean film in this than it is to run exposed stock through a processsing machine. Its hard to believe though that it would use water and not some sort of solvent. The RTI cleaners at the School District I worked at used some solvent that made you higher than a kite... Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...... Mark  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 02-10-2008 10:18 AM                     When I visited the National Film and Television Archive, sometime in the '90s, they had recently had to replace their film cleaning equipment, due to the solvent which the older machines being either banned or no longer available. The new machines still used an organic solvent, but a different one. It is quite likely that a water based cleaning system may have been introduced in the '90s for environmental reasons.  |  IP: Logged Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 02-10-2008 12:13 PM                       I was echoing Ken's comment. Water or oil on polyester stock will cause the emulsion to stick like glue, while acetate shrugged these things off fairly well. Whether or not it's the emulsion that doesn't adhere as well to polyester as it did to acetate, the difference still is in the fact that it is polyester stock. I don't know that labs apply water to the stock for (ultrasonic) cleaning, but rather a chemical.  |  IP: Logged Kenneth Wuepper Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1026 From: Saginaw, MI, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 02-10-2008 09:53 PM                     I think that Mark remembers the old 16mm formula of 50% PERC and 50% Xecoat. That could give you a massive headache in no time at all. That is why the solvent chambers were sealed while operating. Cleaning projection films has the extra need to remove oil as well as dust and other particles. Water doesn't do that too well.  |  IP: Logged

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