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Author Topic: Strong Super 80 Igniter Haranadh Vemulapalli Film Handler Posts: 4 From: Cambridge On Canada Registered: Nov 2006 posted 10-04-2007 02:31 PM                  Can you explain difference between AC igniter(Strong part reference #3999A) and DC IgnitorStrong reference (Strong reference part #39862).Some one mention in Strong super 80 I should use AC Igniter( reference # 3999A),But same guy saying I can use DC Igniter (reference 39862). So I have confusion now, what is difference between AC igniter and DC igniter .If you don’t mind can you explain to me. Thanks Hari [ 10-04-2007, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Haranadh Vemulapalli ]  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-05-2007 07:22 AM                     The AC ignitor emits a high voltage AC pulse and the DC ignitor emits a high voltage DC pulse its pretty much that simple. The DC ignitor is simpler in design. Neither of the Strong Super 80 ignitors have proven to be very reliable over the years. The DC ignitor has seen huge numbers of failures over the years. Both ignitors can be field repaired unless the ignitor coil itself has gone bad. In the AC ignitor its common for the AC step up transformer to fail and or the gap to melt down. The Step up transformer was not available for several years but are available again from Strong Parts. When they weren't available the AC step up transformer from the 4kw Christie ignitor was a good substitute. BTW: The high voltage pulse causes the xenon gas in the lamp to ionize and then conduct the lower voltage DC. I hope this helps..... Mark  |  IP: Logged Haranadh Vemulapalli Film Handler Posts: 4 From: Cambridge On Canada Registered: Nov 2006 posted 10-09-2007 02:24 PM                  Thanks Mark  |  IP: Logged Tristan Lane Master Film Handler Posts: 444 From: Nampa, Idaho Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-16-2007 03:07 AM                     Is the said Super80 being used with a large-format projector?? If not, I suggest moving this to FHF.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-04-2007 05:10 PM                     We have not had AC igniter problems from Strong...other than them coming in one-piece when shipped in Super Lume-X lamphouses. The AC igniter has proven VERY reliable, in fact, for us. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-04-2007 09:20 PM                     I too have not had a Super Lum-Ex ignitor die in many, many years... just the larger 4kw and up unit. Be it used in a Super 80, Ultra 80, or Console, we have all three in this area... I've seen a half dozen or eight come through the shop in the last couple of years. Either bad primary ignition transformer or melted arc gap. I think only one of them had a bad secondary ignition coil. In general we probably see well over a dozen to fifteen bad ignitors of all types come through the shop in a years time. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-05-2007 06:29 AM                     Bad igniters are not that common a thing for us (any brand). Perhaps bad altitude in your area? Not that we don't get the occasional one but nothing that would indicate a trend. There are some igniter failures you can't blame on the igniter. Like on a Xetron console where someone in the past bypassed the protection circuit breaker. A xenon lamp exploded and then the igniter, upon seening the voltage rise, dutifully started igniting continously. Christie is probably the slickest in this respect with their bi-metal tube to give the igniter a break if it is used too much in a period of time.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-05-2007 08:07 AM                     It may have to do with the fact of the ratio of screens we service... just over 700. We see more Super 80's than any other model but also a fair number of Christie's. Seems Christie had a bad run of secondary transformers too in the recent past. If your Xetron is paired with an IREM rectifier and you have the zener in there and the old pot disconnected the lamphouse shouldn't want to re-fire (in theory) since the no-load isn't going high enough to fire the zener... thats the job of the boost board. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-05-2007 12:23 PM                     Speaking of IREM rectifiers and possibly drifting a little off topic...recently, IREM added this circuit breaker to the "A1" board (RA Relay in previous IREM designs, but no longer on current models). If it trips, you loose filtration but the lamp will still strike (at least with Kinoton lamphouses)...and ripple itself to death. You have the option of hooking up some sort of signal to denote the breaker has tripped but it doesn't come that way from the factory...just contacts for the installer, if so desired. I didn't realize the thing was in there until I had one trip. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-05-2007 02:41 PM                     That sure is a fitting addation to a wonderful rectifier. Is the breaker self resetting or manual reset? It would seem like an additon that can be taken out. Why after all these years they'd want to add that is beyond me. I'll take a Christie or switching rectifier any day. With the switcher you have the added advantage that any riple or flicker that may be cause by same is so far beyond the threshold of sight that its irrelevant. In fact at leaset one other tech that I know that has installed Kinoton E Series machines feel there is a big advantage with the switcher and a high speed pull down combination. Mark Mark Mar  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-06-2007 09:18 AM                     The breakers is not self-resetting. It looks like a regular ABB breaker (single pole but with attached contacts that follow the regular contact). I suspect this might have been a UL restriction since it prevents overcurrent when the capacitors charge. While yes, it can be bypassed if there is enough cable length (or by splicing), you would negate the UL listing and take any resulting damage to the unit or building onto yourself. As to Christie...I generally like their rectifiers but have added our own surge suppression to them to keep the diodes from dropping. At ShowEast, Christie indicated that they are probably going to drop the CCX line of stand alone rectifiers as well as their stand-alone lamphouses. What is silly about dropping the rectifiers is that they are identical to the console versions but with a metal can wrapped around them...even the adjustment knob merely pokes through the can rather than being mounted to a different piece. The other changes include being on a base to get it off the ground and use of a 220V fan rather than 120V since there is no neutral line in a standalone rectifier. As to switchers...they remain less reliable for us and while they don't have low frequency ripple, they do have HF ripple that has the lamps look like someone sprinkled sand on them. I generally get longer life out of the high-reactance powered lamps by quite a margin. As to appearance, I've used a great many switchers and conventional rectifiers on Kinoton "E" projectors and one would be hard pressed to say one looks appreciably different. Compared to other factors like the lamp itself and the shutter variations, the rectifier is less likely though certainly possible to cause a notable difference. One notable difference is in the striking of the lamp...the switchers tend to get the lamp lit and gradually bring it up to its set current. High reactance tend to be much more abrupt. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-06-2007 10:26 AM                     Steve, Its odd that IREM would need that breaker after all these years. No other manufacturers rectifiers need a breaker in theor start circuits like that to meet UL and other capacitors in other manufacturers rectifiers are considerably larger and actually pose a greater discharge hazard(Greater energy storage). Compare the whimpy IREM main capacitors with those in the Christie or even in Strong Switchers... which are actually leathal with a full charge on them. As to diodes I've stopped using those crappy IR diodes quite some time ago. And they are REALLY crappy!! The epoxy encapsulation they use just doesn't hold up over many thermal cycles. The Semikron diodes are glass encapsulated Like Mil-Spec semiconductors are and can take the thermal loads much better. We switched to Semikron diodes (So did IREM) like the SKN 70 Series Diodes and have zero failures where we had repeat failures even when replacing whole sets... which we normally do. Not only is the current capacity of these diodes on a large scale compared to the IR stuff but the voltage rating is also 1600 volts. Ya have to drill out the holes as the studs are metric but thats no big deal and its the last time you'll be replacing diodes anyway. These diodes do make a huge difference in reliability. You won't need to add surge supression... The good thing... these diodes are LESS EXPENSIVE than the equivelent IR diode. They are available with attached braid lead or as a standard stud mount in both forword and reverse packages. As far as running switchers on E series making an improvement I can put you in touch with the guy that claims it to be. I doubt that I could see the difference. He noticed a problem with the DP-70 shutter that I never noticed and it is there although very subtle. One thing for sure, if you don't use a good supressor on the panel that each switcher is on you are guaranteed to have trouble with them. Supressors really should be built into Strong's switchers but I guess then their repair guys wouldn't be very busy... nor would I. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-06-2007 11:25 AM                     Mark, IREM has changed their design on their rectifiers on this last generation...they have a LOT more capacitance then they used to. On an N3-180 you have four 4700uF capacitors in parallel for a total of 18,800uF PLUS a 2200uF start cap that is on its own for ignition and in parallel for running for a grand total of 21,000uF. For the N3-150 things get a bit more traditional with two 5600uF plus the 2200uF for a total of 13,400uF (and they use different breakers...or at least different IREM part numbers). Here on FT the current schematic and N3-150 and N3-180 parts lists are available. The A1 board does not have a published schematic. I noted on at least some if not all of Strong's switchers, there is an indicator fuse (like 40A) on the line connecting to the main caps. Christie has always had that nichrome wire in series with the main cap to deal with the surge. Steve  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-06-2007 01:27 PM                     Have not had the desire to spec in any IREM's in the last few years. I just don't see any cost effectiveness for them in the every day plex. In other circumstances the current adjust is nifty for precise matching between two lamphouses. I absolutely hate the core adjustments = wasted time. I think the Christie's do just as well and even better in some regards to be honest. They definately don't look as spiffy though. Actually the fuse on the older Strongs is not an indicator fuse but a special "Semiconductor Protection" fuse that rarely blows fast enough to protect anything important. The real pisser on the Strongs is that some of them have the "Wait 20 Min. Before Changing Fuse" warning and some do not. So some times people will just go ahead and replace the fuse and it blows as they tighten it back down. Strong also forgot to put a bleeder resistor on some of the early ones main filter caps and in fact the rectifier can sit for weeks and still have 80% of its charge and still blow the new fuse. The compact switchers show a "module" LED when one of the internal fuses blows... normally thats either representative of shorted diodes and or switching transistors. I don't recall even one bad compact switcher that had JUST a blown fuse... Anyway, if you look in one of the new IREM's you will find they also use the Semikron diodes . Mark  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 03-16-2008 01:36 PM                        There are two advantages to the IREM: 1. long bulb life with all major brands 2. lower electrical power consumption; just use your clamp on meter. Compared to Christie, you can buy a new rectifier out of the power savings. Louis  |  IP: Logged

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