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Author Topic: Cutting Manufacturing Costs and How it AFFECTS Product QUALITY Andres Briano Expert Film Handler Posts: 162 From: Buenos Aires, Argentina Registered: Jan 2008 posted 05-08-2008 08:57 PM                        I am currently installing a new 5-plex. It´s been 14 months since my last install. When uncrating equipment, it became sadly obvious how many (if not all) manufacturers are cutting costs in their 35mm line of products. Examples: BEFORE: AFTER: Where has the insulating paint gone?? I am not a big fan of touching the heat sink when it is energized , however I´m sure the paint served a purpose. BEFORE: AFTER: It is a given that the fan on the outside of the console sucks a lot ...of air. However, can you honestly tell me that the vents on the sides of the fan were useless? My point here is not to speak poorly of one or any company. It´s just that it pisses me off when the decision is made to cut costs where it clearly degrades the quality of an otherwise good product. Am I alone here?  |  IP: Logged Tristan Lane Master Film Handler Posts: 444 From: Nampa, Idaho Registered: Feb 2002 posted 05-08-2008 09:50 PM                     I'm not sure either one of these things really affects overall performance or reliability of the equipment. The insulating paint probably provided little to guard against electric shock. The vent panel may be somewhat of a cut corner, but the overall effect it would have on performance is probably pretty minimal. Sure, if the fan dies, there's little airflow coming from anywhere else. Considering that Christie is now focusing much of their efforts on D-cinema, and the retail of 35mm equipment is probably anticipated to plummet soon, I'm guessing that the company is looking to find ways to maximize profits where they can. I'm sure these changes were discussed in great detail before being incorporated into the finished product, and it was probably deemed acceptable to make the changes in the interest of business. I understand where you are coming from with the quality of most goods getting worse and worse lately. Look at vacuum cleaners, and the fact that most new cheap vacuum cleaners only last a year or so. Old eureka metal bodied vacuums are still working after 30 years of use.  |  IP: Logged Charles Greenlee Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 801 From: Savannah, Ga, U.S. Registered: Jun 2006 posted 05-08-2008 10:13 PM                        Well, chenging out diode packs weren't my most favorite thing to do anyhow. But must it was because of the condition that compartment was in due to long term lack of care.  |  IP: Logged Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 05-08-2008 11:14 PM                       Humm, I thought those buss bars were discontinued? I've tried ordering the set for 7K consoles, and all they send are heavier stranded cable.  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 05-09-2008 05:30 AM                     Selling established manufacturers and producing our own product I can see the plus and minuses to the new "improved" hardware. Removing the insulating paint on the stack and panel vents may improve air flow and more even heat dissapation on the diode stack.....they probably need the extra $15.00 they saved in cost . I know of two manufacturers who have added "refurbished" projectors into their production cycle in the past couple of years; so the writing is on the wall...  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2008 06:57 AM                     The Black paint was probably NOT for insulation purposes but for "black body radiation" theory in order to pull the heat to the outside of the stack so the air could remove it from there. As to the vents...if you think about it...if you have a fan next to a vent...the fan will pull some air from the vents right next to it and thus NOT pull air across the heatsink/stack. The vents would need to be on the other side (across the console) to create a proper air flow over the heatsinks. Now if you want to pick on a clear performance reducer...one manufacturer nixed their choke on the output of their high-reactance supply. That is guaranteed to increase ripple and actually take away protection from the diodes from an igniter back-spike. If you want to see a rectifier company that has ADDed features since previous models...check out Irem's current stuff. More filtration, more accessory terminals, fuses, UL listing...and such. If you have an N3 series, the diodes are pretty easy to change, if you have a G series in a console...good luck with the headroom...they look to be a bare to change (need small fingers and you can't see what you are working on as they are located on TOP of rectifier and NOT all in one place as in previous designs. Steve  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 05-09-2008 07:51 AM                        It's the way-of-the-world: charge more and more; deliver less and less. Louis  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-09-2008 08:43 AM                     I agree with Tristian... None of the differences you see will affect performance in the least. I personally would prefer the copper buss to the cables myself... those copper busses are VERY EASY TO DUPLICATE! quote: Louis Bornwasser It's the way-of-the-world: charge more and more; deliver less and less. Louis I definately see that as pertaining to Wrong International but when you stand back and look at the constant improvements that Christie has made to many of their products WITHOUT any major price increases you know that at least one company has their act together. The only thing Christie has done is to discontinue slow selling pieces like the 7KW console... it simply isn't needed any longer with other options that are now available. The "New Technical Folks" at Christie have made many "positive changes" to many neglected areas of different equipment over the last several years over what the "old school" crew didn't do or accomplish the "New Folks" definately have. Its one of the main reasons why Christie now has 80% of the North American market! quote: Steve Guttag Now if you want to pick on a clear performance reducer...one manufacturer nixed their choke on the output of their high-reactance supply. That is guaranteed to increase ripple and actually take away protection from the diodes from an igniter back-spike. Steve... Don't let the disappearance of the chokes stop you form selling them... you can always add the chokes back in for your customers if you want! Custom wound chokes ARE NOT EXPENSIVE. Its long been known that painting heatsinks with black paint actually keeps the heat sink from radiating efficiently. The only "Black" treatment that actually works to increase efficiency is black anodize. Mark  |  IP: Logged Andres Briano Expert Film Handler Posts: 162 From: Buenos Aires, Argentina Registered: Jan 2008 posted 05-09-2008 05:42 PM                        Richard and Tristan: You are right, of course. But mine was a highly subjective post written while still pissed at those surprises. quote: Steve Guttag The Black paint was probably NOT for insulation purposes but for "black body radiation" theory in order to pull the heat to the outside of the stack so the air could remove it from there. Steve: A question: If Black Body Radiation was the cause, why had they left a strip unpainted (where the diodes screw into the heat sink)? That was the reason I asumed that was for insulation purposes. Regardless, I was just bitching about one thing they used to provide (for the same price as Mark Gulbrandsen stated) that is now GONE. Mark G: Why is it that I am not in the least surprised about you defending Christie?. Would you please make a list for us with all the things you don´t like (or even hate) about Christie? Don´t get me wrong! I love their SLC consoles. But no objective tech can fall (blindly) in love with a brand. As a gift, I leave another example for you: Remember the days when the feed units (avoiding the use of the word "brain" here) came with all the degrees of arm inclination in the bottom plate?  |  IP: Logged Tim Reed Better Projection Pays Posts: 5246 From: Northampton, PA Registered: Sep 1999 posted 05-09-2008 06:44 PM                       quote: Andres Briano But no objective tech can fall (blindly) in love with a brand. He's been trying to get a job with them forever. Notice how he made excuses for Christie's shortcomings above, but if Strong had done that, he'd be all over them like stink on ! It's a charade - no one's taken him seriously for some time now. FWIW, I was glad to see the redundant degree markings go away. They weren't necessary.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 05-09-2008 08:01 PM                     Agreed, removing the marks is probably an improvement if anything. The only thing even Christie recommends to use on the center-feed "brains" is the 0 and the 70%. You seem to be complaining about non-issues or improvements here. Do you also feel shafted because they changed the color of the consoles? After all some people are simply resistant to change. I have been VERY pleased with the quality of Christie equipment, which over the last several years has been only improving. The ONLY thing they have done which aggravates me is their switch to "auto calibrating infrared led" bullshit on their platters...but they WILL build them the good way with the visible leds if you simply request it when you order them.  |  IP: Logged Andres Briano Expert Film Handler Posts: 162 From: Buenos Aires, Argentina Registered: Jan 2008 posted 05-10-2008 06:10 PM                        That´s true!! Thanks for reminding me of that!! How would they dare change the color of their equipment!! Here´s another "no-issue" for you all. Have you seen the latest version of the Platter Select buttons (?) Errr... switches?  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 05-10-2008 08:19 PM                     Andres, do you work for Strong or something? You're just getting ridiculous here. So let me get this right. You are saying that you would rather have a $300 assembly to change out when the old style AW3 makeup buttons broke, rather than being able to run down to the freakin' RADIO SHACK and blow $2 on a replacement toggle switch? HOW IS THIS ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN IMPROVEMENT??? Remember, just because there is a change does NOT mean the quality went down. With Christie's products, the quality has only gone UP! Sheeeeeesch!  |  IP: Logged Michael Moore Expert Film Handler Posts: 188 From: Dover, DE / USA Registered: Jun 2006 posted 05-10-2008 09:02 PM                        I really believe that quality of equipment is only as good as the operators that run the equipment. If one does not maintain or keep the equipment up to par it will fail. And if the operator can not run the equipment properly then the equipment will fail. I have a cheap smithy lathe/milling machine made in china. And well let’s say many real machinists would say that Smithy Machines are crap. I also have a small 1959 Atlas lathe, and many machinist would say that it is a fine machine. However I can turn-down a piece of round stock on both machines with relatively the same accuracy; however the smithy needs a little more care to center everything. Also the Smithy needed to have adjustments for the tail stock and the gibs on the ways. I have a 1953 Shopsmith 10ER, 5 in 1 machine, and many people say there has never been a machine made like it and never will be again. I will have to say the table saw on it is wonderful; however I can get the same results with a Delta, craftsman and Black & Decker with the same attention to detail I worked for short time with an old timer machinist he said this, “if you’re a crap operator and you do not understand your equipment or pay attention to details, then you will produce crap no mater how expensive or good your tools are”. I think it is the same with projection equipment to an existent. I have had the honor to run Simplex, Century, Cinemeccanica , Christy, Speco, Xetron, and many others. And have found many of the equipments to work just fine, and have had not problems running any one piece of equipment or working on any one piece. Yes I have confronted problems with particular pieces of equipment but once the problems are discovered and solved then the equipment works. While quality of materials is important, I think the operator and technician are the other parts of the equation that are just or even more so important. Look at Burt Munro, built almost everything he had, modified his motorcycle, and did all the work himself; and still holds the land speed record for under 1000cc. He had an eye for detail and understood his machine. Michael Moore I have a 1953 Shopsmith 10ER, 5 in 1 machine, and many people say there has never been a machine made like it and never will be again. I also have a small 1959 Atlas lathe,  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-10-2008 09:13 PM                     So far none of you have presented anything substantial and I call you all piss and moaners! But.... Ok, I have one complaint with OLD christie stuff from say 20 or more years ago. There were no fan under the heatsinks at all! Of course we install fans there ourselves to improve the reliability. Overall... I can find very little to fault Christie for. The sales people we deal with... especially Keith and Lisa go way above and beyond any other entertainment product companies I've ever delt with in the last 32 years. The film engineering team including Jim Dukes and Jim Graton are are also doing an absolutely superb job. Christie is indeed very lucky to have these folks working for them. While Strong sits on their asses its the folks I mentioned above at Christie that are STILL making very worth while improvements to many areas of quite a few different products. Agree with them or not Tim and Andres Christie Quality has beaten the pants off everyone else in the industry including Kinoton! Do I want to work for them... Of course at CLACO the feeling is that we all work for Christie already, and we want to because we belive in them because they supply the most solid products for us to be marketing to our customers... I can however say that we tolerate many other companies out there... some large... some small. Would I want to be a Christie employee? If things were right possibly... but then I happen to enjoy where I live and how my life has shaped up so it isn't a necessary thing for me to approach. Tim... If I were you I'd certainly be approaching them about work... How long will NEC "tolerate" Strong before it all goes through NEC Direct? I'll bet that Christie will ultimately be the only ones left in the North American game. Michael... Burt Munro is one of my real life heroes! If you want something better than that 1959 Atlas... Look for a late 1930's South Bend flat belt drive lathe with taper bushing headstock... They're a superb piece if you find one with a bed that isn't worn out. Mark  |  IP: Logged

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