my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Black & white prints smell

Author Topic: Black & white prints smell Tyler Potts Expert Film Handler Posts: 159 From: Anderson, SC, USA Registered: Sep 2008 posted 09-30-2008 10:08 PM                       I tried searching, but didn't find anything. When building and running Good Night and Good Luck it had a strong smell of shoe polish and slightly rubbing alcohol. Has anyone else noticed this with prints like Good Night and Good Luck or The Good German or anthing else. Also... what causes this smell? Is it the stock or something in the emulsion?  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 09-30-2008 11:32 PM                     Black and white film does smell different than color film. The chemistry for b/w film is a lot different than color but I don't know that I would say it smells like shoe polish and alcohol. Could it be some butthead used shoe polish to mark the reel ends and some other butthead tried to get it off with a bottle of rubbing alcohol?  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-01-2008 02:37 AM                        i only see one butthead... rubbing alcohol does a pretty good job of removing that stuff.  |  IP: Logged Tyler Potts Expert Film Handler Posts: 159 From: Anderson, SC, USA Registered: Sep 2008 posted 10-01-2008 08:10 AM                       It was a new print and no, I don't use either. Well, alcohol for splicer cleaning but that's it.  |  IP: Logged Kenneth Wuepper Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1026 From: Saginaw, MI, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-01-2008 08:24 AM                     Rubbing Alcohol contains water. It is better to get Isopropyl anhydrous (without water) from the paint department of the local builder's supply house. KEN  |  IP: Logged Richard P. May Expert Film Handler Posts: 243 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Jan 2006 posted 10-01-2008 10:02 AM                     Black and white film does not have a built-in lubricant as does color print stock. It is necessary to edge-wax the prints to keep them from sticking in the projector gate, causing them to run very noisily, and eventually jumpy. The wax is probably the cause of the smell. Waxing is not usually needed for archival prints, as they do not get the long projection use of a general release. One of the first instances of this problem that I heard of was the original release of SCHINDLER'S LIST. This 3-hour b&w picture, run on platters, caused a lot of projection problems. Also, the dye-transfer release of GONE WITH THE WIND a few years ago had many complaints about "flaking". The print stock for this process was basically b&w, for printing of the sound track. RPM  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-01-2008 10:46 AM                     FilmGuard removes the shoe polish too. As Ken said, alcohol you get from the drug store has water in it. Although I have used alcohol on some occasions, I prefer to use FG. 1) It's better for the film. 2) You don't have to keep as many chemicals on hand. If you still want to use alcohol it is best to use the anhydrous version but if you can't get it or don't want to use it, at least be sure to buy the 90% isopropyl instead of the 70% version. Oh, yeah! I remember that release of GWTW! We had one projector which had the trap and shoe just a teeny bit out of adjustment but we didn't realize it until we put GWTW on that projector. You'd think it was snowing in the booth!  |  IP: Logged Thomas Pitt Master Film Handler Posts: 266 From: Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK Registered: May 2007 posted 10-01-2008 12:29 PM                     In SCHINDLER'S LIST, wasn't there one short scene with some color? A girl is seen walking around with a red dress - was that using color stock spliced in, or was it added as a layer to the B/W film? Make sure it's not a nitrate print you're running - the smell could well be the print starting to degenerate! I've also heard of 'vinegar syndrome' on non-nitrate prints.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 10-01-2008 12:35 PM                     quote: Thomas Pitt I've also heard of 'vinegar syndrome' on non-nitrate prints. VG syndrome was common with triacetate film stock - open up either a 16mm or 35mm can and that acetic acid odor that emits when the acetate starts to break down can be rather pungent.  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 10-02-2008 02:22 AM                     It's not unheard of to edge wax a print with clear shoe polish, most booths do not have a proper film waxing machine anymore, so when a B&W print appears that needs lubricating, something has to be done. This one may have had that clear show polish treatment. There is a proper bulletin from Kodak detailing the procedure, it even specifies the brand of shoe polish to use, Kiwi IIRC.  |  IP: Logged Carl Martin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1424 From: Oakland, CA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-02-2008 02:38 AM                        we only use the 91% alcohol... certainly 70% is undesirable in the booth. i don't know about filmguard. i never tried it on shoe polish during the time we were allowed to use it. i do most cleaning with ronsonol (naphtha), but some substances, like sharpie ink and shoe polish, come off much more easily with alcohol. anhydrous alcohol... haven't seen that at the drug store.  |  IP: Logged John Hawkinson Film God Posts: 2273 From: Cambridge, MA, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 10-02-2008 05:35 AM                     Kodak recommended the use of SC Johnson Paste Wax, but only under special circumstances, and certainly not colored shoe polish! --jhawk  |  IP: Logged Richard P. May Expert Film Handler Posts: 243 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Jan 2006 posted 10-02-2008 10:05 AM                     This all started with a question of why a print of GNGL smells like wax, and everybody is giving recommendations of how to clean it off. The point is that these prints WERE waxed when manufactured, in order to insure smooth projection of b&w print stock. They should be left alone.  |  IP: Logged Tyler Potts Expert Film Handler Posts: 159 From: Anderson, SC, USA Registered: Sep 2008 posted 10-02-2008 10:19 AM                       Thank you, Richard.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-02-2008 01:35 PM                     Waxing black and white prints won't save them. They will get amazingly dirty in no time and if there is an SRD/SDDS track on them you can kiss it goodbye quickly. FilmGuard is the only "cure" so-to-say for black and white prints. That wax the labs put on is a very bad thing. Anyone who has ran recent black and white prints with and without FilmGuard can attest to this. Regarding Schindler's List, the original prints were black and white with color sections spliced in by the lab. Because of the problems people were having in projection, the second run of prints were done on color stock.  |  IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

Printer-friendly view of this topic

Hop To: Select a Forum: Category: Operations -------------------- Digital Cinema Forum Film Handlers' Forum Large Format Forum Ground Level Feature Info, Trailer Attachments & REAL Credit Offsets Category: Community -------------------- Film-Yak Film Handlers' Movie Reviews The Afterlife Bob Maar's Joke-A-Thon Category: Classified -------------------- Equipment and Supplies Wanted/For Sale Help Wanted/Seeking Employment Category: System -------------------- Software Beta Testing Forum

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.