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Author Topic: Renting Pink Noise Generator ? Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-13-2010 09:55 AM                     We will be doing some upgrades to our sound system this summer. Of course, this will require rechecking the A-Chain and B-Chain but I don't have all of the equipment to do the job. I have the oscilloscope and test films for the A-Chain. I can probably rent or borrow an analyzer from the local company who does other sound system work for us. I do not have the pink noise generator for our cinema processor. (Smart Mod II-B) It would not be economical for us to buy one. Is there any chance we can rent one for the job? Anybody out there have one they can loan out. (For pay.)  |  IP: Logged Jarret Chessell Master Film Handler Posts: 288 From: London, Ontario, Canada Registered: Jan 2009 posted 05-13-2010 06:30 PM                     Do you have DTS installed?? You can use the pink noise off the test discs.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-13-2010 06:52 PM                     Nope. No digital. The cinema processor is a Smart MOD II-B. You can sort of hook digital inputs up to it but it really wasn't designed for it. I suppose I could hook an external PNG up to the discrete channel inputs but I'd really like to use the genuine article. This system hasn't had a good tune up in years. It's high time it was done right... or as close to right as I can get under the conditions I have to work under.  |  IP: Logged Jarret Chessell Master Film Handler Posts: 288 From: London, Ontario, Canada Registered: Jan 2009 posted 05-13-2010 07:28 PM                     The manual says you can hook up a different pink noise source to digital input, but to make sure it's at .55 volts RMS before you plug her in... Now remember kids: if a 707 hits a peek you get a real mess. .707 X Vppk = Vrms (if you're using your scope to set it anyways...) lol sorry, being silly  |  IP: Logged Jonathan Bodge Film Handler Posts: 83 From: East Dorset, VT Registered: Nov 2006 posted 05-13-2010 09:14 PM                     Here's my 2 cents which is worth 2 cents. I've done many houses with pink noise and analyzer. All of the time I readjust by using my ear. Not to mention EVERY movie is mixed (EQ) differently. I'll never forget working along side a sound company that produced great sound in a live venue. I asked, "Did you pink noise the room?" he said "Oh that can get you in more trouble than it's worth"  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-13-2010 09:21 PM                     the buss level in the mod 2b is 707 at 50%  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-13-2010 10:01 PM                     The story on this theater's sound system is a long and sad one. It needs to be EQed with pink noise. When the theater was installed, 15 years ago, they used EAW speakers. The LA325. http://www.eaw.com/products/la325.html I told them these weren't going to work but this is what I got anyway. When they didn't work, they asked me why. I told them there are supposed to be three speakers across the screen. So they bought a JBL. Oh, I forget the model. It is the one with the long HF horn on top. So, now they have one theater speaker and two concert speakers. What's more the center speaker had to be bi-amped and the others were full-range. That still didn't work. So, after much fussing around, they bought two more JBLs. This time the 4675C. http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/General/Product.aspx?PId=77&MId=1 What's more the center speaker was being re-routed to the house sound system's Media Matrix to split the signal into HF and LF for the bi-amp. Years go by. People complain that they can't hear the dialogue. Nothing really gets done but some minor fussing around. Finally, somebody drops some scenery on the long horn of the center JBL. It tears the whole top of the speaker cabinet off... Horn, mount and all. So I patched that back up with plywood and gaffer's tape. That keeps for another two or three years, even though I told them that the thing needed to be replaced. They just didn't want to pay for it. More time goes by. More complaints. More questions. I keep giving the same answer: The sound system was messed up from the start. Finally, through some stroke of magic, enough people complained and enough of the higher-ups heard about it that something "had to be done." That's why we're getting a new center speaker. A 4675C to match the other two. So, now I am going to install that speaker. Hook it up to the Smart cinema processor the way it should have been done all those years ago, then perform a complete A-Chain and B-Chain on the system. I have done A-Chains on the system about once per year but it has never had a B-chain done since it was installed. At least not correctly. I know that more than one of the various and sundry "consultants" who were called in to look at the system made some adjustments to it. I am sure that the levels and the EQ settings are all over the map. I am certain that replacing the center speaker and retuning the system the way it should be tuned will make 100% difference. I know that it won't be perfect but it will be better than what we've been doing. Once this has been done I would like to put a baffle wall behind the screen. (Remember, we are a live performance theater.) I can hang it on one of the fly lines and fly it in when we need it. Currently, we fly in the mid-stage curtains behind the speakers. After that, I would like to get a new cinema processor but that is going to have to wait. If we were to get a new processor we would have to get that new speaker anyway. Therefore, I am hoping (praying) that this improvement will be a lead-in to further improvements. I will set it according to the RTA but once that is done, we will have to make adjustments by ear. Being a live performance venue it has very live walls. I know that there will have to be adjustments to account for that but I will have to cross that bridge when we come to it. (I don't remember what the adjustments will have to be. It's been too long. I will just have to look them up and do some studying.) But first, the B-Chain....  |  IP: Logged Richard Hamilton Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1341 From: Evansville, Indiana Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-14-2010 08:52 AM                     Randy, is the Smart II-B going thru the Media Matrix?  |  IP: Logged Sean McKinnon Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1712 From: Peabody Massachusetts Registered: Sep 2000 posted 05-14-2010 09:07 AM                        quote: Jonathan Bodge Here's my 2 cents which is worth 2 cents. I've done many houses with pink noise and analyzer. All of the time I readjust by using my ear. Not to mention EVERY movie is mixed (EQ) differently. I'll never forget working along side a sound company that produced great sound in a live venue. I asked, "Did you pink noise the room?" he said "Oh that can get you in more trouble than it's worth" The thing is John is that yeah every soundtrack is mixed differently but (theoretically) every mixing studio (for motion picture soundtracks) is eq'd to the same standard theatres are eq'd to (ISO 2969 if I remember correctl) so in order for the mix to sound as it was intended to sound pink noise must be used and the proper response curve applied. Final minor adjustment by ear is an important part of the process but without the solid foundation the content being played back will not sound like it was intended to. Pink noise is also required to set proper SPL's. Now live sound is a completely different animal from cinema sound same as broadcast and other pro-audio is completely different. Different standards, signal levels, etc... Remember in a cinema sound system we do not have to worry so much about mic feedback so we do not have to isolate the frequencies that cause feedback in a particular room. We are free to have a perceived even power level for most of the audible frequencies which is ideal.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-14-2010 09:25 AM                     Richard; Yes. It goes through the Media Matrix. The left and right screen channels go directly to the speakers on the stage. The center speaker is routed through the Media Matrix. From the Media Matrix there are four outputs: 1 output goes to the main, center cluster for the auditorium sound system. 1 output goes to the under balcony speakers. 1 output goes to the hearing impaired system. 1 output goes to the center stage speaker, full range. Then that goes into a Rane electronic crossover which splits the high and the low and, finally, that goes out to the amps & speakers. The Rane crossover also splits out the low freq. for the subwoofers. It's a Mongolian cluster fuck. (As opposed to the standard cluster fuck.) I want all of that to basically be torn out. I want all the screen channels to go direct to the speakers with nothing in between. Then I will throw them a line for the hearing impaired system. If they want to route that signal to the under balcony speakers they can do that but I'm not really digging the idea.  |  IP: Logged Richard Hamilton Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1341 From: Evansville, Indiana Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-14-2010 09:55 AM                     Randy, can you look at the veiw file for the Media Matrix? Is it a main frame or x-frame? I always wrote my programs with a built in pink noise generator.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-14-2010 10:15 AM                     I know there is no PNG in the Media Matrix program. This thing is OLD. The computer runs on Windows 3.1. It was put in 15 years ago and hasn't been updated since. New programs were written and rewritten. It's all a patchwork quilt of junk on top of junk. I generally like the Media Matrix but I really want to get the cinema system untangled from the house system before I do anything else. Then, once the cinema system works in some semblance of the way it is supposed to work, we can think about integrating the two. But, right now, with two channels going direct to the stage and one channel being split up four ways before being directed to five different locations, I think I have to untangle all that crap before doing anything else.  |  IP: Logged Richard Hamilton Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1341 From: Evansville, Indiana Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-14-2010 10:45 AM                     Randy, It could be as simple as adding a BoB and re-writing the veiw file. Or....do you have spare inputs and outputs on the BoBs that are in the rack? It's been a few years since I wrote a veiw file, but your case doesn't sound that bad.  |  IP: Logged Demetris Thoupis Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1240 From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus Registered: Apr 2001 posted 05-14-2010 11:39 AM                     Randy it would be WISER and much better going for a JSD80 unit instead from USL Pink noise built in, RTA built in! Nothing can go wrong and it does emulate SR Excellent. Also their monitor has built in crossover if you wish for (again an excellent addition and not that costly) Price also is not restrictive at all. Force them. Tell them IT HAS TO BE DONE. Or you can go with the Dolby unit and get urself some DD as well If you stick with the Smart died obsolete thing, you will be stuck with it and complains for more than 20 more years to come. Also note that the JSD unit is D-Cinema ready. My 2cents Demetris.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-14-2010 12:54 PM                     There are two BoBs. Only about 1-1/2 of them are used. There are extra ins and outs. The contractor who does our house sound has worked on it, spradically, for years. There is little or no improvement. He really does not understand cinema sound and he makes little attempt to understand. Every time he does anything it's just a patchwork job. The guy who is the TD for the center wants to get rid of the Media Matrix all together so it is likely to go away some time in the future. I don't want to invest time in something that is just going to get torn out again. I really want a JSD-80. I have been telling them for years that they need a new processor. I have said it so much for so long that people get angry at me for the mere mention of it. From the day this system was put in I have been telling them it is wrong. I have showed them the manuals and the tech specs that detail how it is supposed to be done. I have been in shouting matches about it yet they still insist on doing it this way. For the amount of money they have spent on this broken sound system they could have bought two brand new Dolby CP-650s yet they still insist on ignoring me but, whenever there is a complaint, I am the first one who gets called. The guy who is supposed to be our contractor convinced the director of the center to buy a pair of Rhenkus-Heniz 18 inch subwoofers and a pair of EV amps to power them because he had them sitting around his warehouse and he just wanted to get rid of them so he convinced my boss that he needed them. He told me this in so many words: "I just want to sell them to somebody." I know you guys think I'm just bellyaching but, if there is a word of this that is not true, may God strike me with a bolt of lighting! This is what I want: 1) I want that new speaker to replace the broken one. 2) I want all three stage speakers hooked up direct to the processor and amps. 3) I want to completely disconnect the Media Matrix from the cinema sound system except for the aux. input for the hearing impaired emitters. 4) I want a complete A-Chain and B-Chain then to tweak the sound for the hall to compensate for the live walls. (I know that's a tall order.) When this is done, I expect to hear a good improvement in the sound which will prove I was right all along. Once we get that far, I hope to convince them to get either a Dolby processor or a USL processor. We are slowly moving toward more digital projection content via satellite. Therefore, whatever the processor we use it is going to have to be able to accept the inputs from at least one or two aux. input sources. While we are at it, I would love to get Dolby Digital for the film sound. Because of this, I think that the JSD-80 or the CP-650 would be the best choices because they are the most "future proof." Right now, I have to concentrate on one thing at a time. I used to do this kind of work every day but, for the last the last ten years I have done little more than monkey work. My skills are rusty, to say the least. I think it's important to tackle this problem one step at a time. Speaker first. Tune-up second. Suggest upgrades third.  |  IP: Logged

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