my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » I am a novice looking for advice on a problem print and or projector (Page 1)

This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3

Author Topic: I am a novice looking for advice on a problem print and or projector John Davey Film Handler Posts: 16 From: Chesterton, Indiana, USA Registered: Jun 2008 posted 06-20-2010 10:42 AM                     Hello all I new to the world of 35mm projection. I have been working at a local one screen for a little less than a year, although I have been a film collector for quite a few years. My technical knoledge is minimal. I can thread a projector and usually run a print successfully. In say usually because as of late, I've been having a problem with a print I run once a week snapping and breaking during projection. I am trying to figure out if it is user error, a mechanical cause with the projection head, or if th print, although it appears to be fine, is just to old and brittle to handle a once a week run. Out theatre has Ballentyne Pro 35 heads. The print in question is a composite from several different prints. I've inspected and cleaned it several times. It seems to have a normal level of flexability. Does not seem overly brittle at all in any of the sections. I have run this print for 3 months now weekly, and up until 3 weeks ago had no problems at all. Now, all of a sudden it is snapping every week in a different place. Are Ballentyne heads known to be rough/picky with older acetate prints? Splices run real rough through these heads, even on brand new prints. Could the snapping be caused by: a. Too much tension at the sound head (the first two weeks it snapped at the sound head after the gate) b. would improper top or bottom loops cause this to start happening out of the blue. I think I've got a pretty good handle on what size the loops should be. All of the other prints I run go through with no problems. c. could it be some mechanical malfunction that I would be unaware of due to my limited knowledge of the inner workings of a projector head? The print WAS being stored in the projection booth, but, the temperatures get WAY to high in that booth for print storage so it has since been moved to my home when not in use. Could the film have just gotten brittle in that short of a time because of the high temps in the booth? Like I sai, the film appears to be quite flexable and no vinegar detected. If this is an issue of the film all of a sudden becoming brittle, will film gaurd applied by hand aleviate this problem enough to make this print run without snapping? I've been cleaning with FlimRenew by hand as I do not have a film cleaning machine and niether does the theatre (nor will they spend the money on one, I've asked). Flim renew seems to make it run a bit smoother if applied right before projection, but obviously it doesn't keep the film from snapping. I am wondering if Film Gaurd, applied by hand, may have a more positive effect. I woould just write it off as a crappy print, but, it seems so odd to me that this just started happening out of the blue, which is why I wonder if operator error/mechanical faliure could be the culprit. Last question: Any splices I make seem to separate. I personally use the CPI clear tape. The theatre buys that yellow stuff. Could these faulty splices be the symptom of the high temperatures in the booth where all of the theatre's film is stored? We are using some generic chinese splicer, which I know is not the best, but, it's all I got and am not sure how a cheap plicer would be the cause of splices separating. (The theater actually has a Nuemade SS but it needs repair, The owners don't understand how important a good splicer is. Thanks for reading, and i hope I will not suffer to much ridiclue for my novice questions. John Davey  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 06-20-2010 11:45 AM                     Hi John, I have some advice for you. Please read the rules before creating topics with teaser subject titles. There is no tolerance here for that, as it wastes people's time and makes searching the archives very difficult. More advice, either you are misthreading the projector, or your projector is in need of serious repair. You probably damaged the print a little bit more each time you ran it. Current movies are on polyester stock and can withstand a projector in need of repair, but older acetate prints can't. Keep that in mind, because that print you are running once a week probably won't be runnable in a month or two at the rate you are going. (This is the same projector that destroyed another acetate print in one pass a year or two ago if I remember.) Even more advice, this thread will be deleted in 24 hours if the title is not corrected.  |  IP: Logged Darryl Spicer Film God Posts: 3250 From: Lexington, KY, USA Registered: Dec 2000 posted 06-20-2010 12:55 PM                    Ballantyne projectors can be rough on acetate film if proper care is not taken. Are you experiencing broken sprocket holes? You mention separating splices, does this occur when the film passes through the gate? One thing to remember is polyester film is thinner than acetate film. As a lot of us know here ballantynes like to have unsteady images caused by not enough tension or coupler problems in the intermittent. It is possible that the tension may have been adjusted on the gate to compensate for an unstable image on a polyester based film. This would cause the tension to be excessive on an acetate based film. That can lead to separated splices and film snapping.  |  IP: Logged John Davey Film Handler Posts: 16 From: Chesterton, Indiana, USA Registered: Jun 2008 posted 06-20-2010 12:59 PM                     Hi Brad, Sorry about that. I honestly did not consider that a teaser topic. However, I changed to to what I hope you find to be more appropriate. As far as the projector, I was afraid it was a projector problem. I just wanted to confirm what I suspected. Although it is in the same booth as the projector you mention that destroyed a print in one pass, it is a different head. They replaced that head a couple of months back. However, they replaced it with ayet another used Ballentyne Pro 35 head. I am 99% sure I am not misthreading the projector. Thanks, John  |  IP: Logged Joe Elliott Master Film Handler Posts: 497 From: Port Orange, Fl USA Registered: Oct 2006 posted 06-20-2010 02:53 PM                     With it breaking at the soundhead, I do not think the following is the problem, but with acetate, it should be mentioned: Examine the breaks carefully and insure it is not catching a broken sprocket hole. It may not be brittle now, after applying Filmguard, but if it had been run before then and was brittle, a few sprocket holes could have broken. I started out in a second run house back in the 80's, and after about 10 weeks (between full price house and then ours) we would start to see a few broken sprocket holes (pre-FilmGuard, back when we used Vitafilm, which was prohibitively expensive). If you find any, either trim them back, or as a last resort , put splicing tape over them or cut them out completely.  |  IP: Logged Ian Parfrey Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1049 From: Imbil Australia 26 deg 27' 42.66" S 152 deg 42' 23.40" E Registered: Feb 2009 posted 06-20-2010 03:22 PM                     Hi John and welcome aboard. Just a few questions to clarify your situation. Are you running platters or change-overs? If change-overs, is it using 6K spools or exchange spools? Does the "clatter" of the print increase before the film breaks? The reason I ask is that when running on spools, there is a greater possibility of film breakage (particularly with brittle acetate prints) at the soundhead IF the takeup tension is too high. This will overstrain the sprocket holes and most likely result in film breakage at that point in the film path. Too much tension can also be due to incorrect platter or tower feed and takeup as well. My experience with the Pro 35 is that it is highly recommended to keep the gate scrupulously clean - as it is in any machine- as emulsion pile up in the gate also puts the film under too much tension and again will result in film breakage. Using Film-Guard is a good idea. Now, to put this bluntly, if you are using crappy splicing tape, then expect crappy splices. There is no way around this. We have all had to deal with shitty tape at one time or another, and if you have crap tape to start with, and then store the print in hot areas, then it is reasonable to expect tape adhesive to liquify and spread causing splice separation and further print damage. If the owners can't (or won't) spring for decent tape then they really hold their operation AND their patrons in contempt. Good tape is NOT that much more expensive than crap tape- period. Can you thread your projector and post clear photos of this so we can determine if there is any problem in this area? This will help in finding out where the problem may lie. If after all your detective work you continue to have film breakage, contact your distributor for a replacement print as the ultimate last resort. Best of luck and keep us posted! Cheers Ian  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-20-2010 10:00 PM                     check that there is not too much gate tension there is a set screw that operates an excentric that sets the maximum pressure and acetate is thick than poly based so it could cause the film to have issues as it passes the tight lop in the sound head  |  IP: Logged Dan Lyons Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 698 From: Seal Beach, CA Registered: Sep 2002 posted 06-21-2010 12:51 AM                     Get a competent tech there straight away. I once owned and rebuilt a Pro-35. There is no reason this machine should harm film; the soundhead is basically a knock-off of the Century soundhead which is one the best around IMO. (though as much as I HATE Kinoton they also have a great soundhead design)  |  IP: Logged John Davey Film Handler Posts: 16 From: Chesterton, Indiana, USA Registered: Jun 2008 posted 06-21-2010 01:39 AM                     Dan, Believe you me, I have begged the owner to get a competent tech in the booth since I started there. He's not having it. He has "a buddy" who "knows his way around these type of mechanical things" Ian, We run 6k with a changeover. The clatter of the print does increases when a slice goes through. It sounds awful (on an acetate or polyester print). I assumed this head was just a noisy head. I have not noticed it clattering excessively before a break though. I agree with you wholeheartedly regarding the splicing tape. I guess my question would be is the CPI tape crap. I know the yellow tape is crap. If so, what brand of clear tape would any of you suggest? I only hesitate to use Film Gaurd because I would by applying it by hand. A little goes a long way. The one time I tried to use it by hand I realized the hard way that I DO NOT know the right amount to apply. The flim was supper slick for months afterward. I will get pics as soon as I can. There is no chance of a replacement print from the distributor. Joe, I at this time I honestly cannot tell if new sprockets are being broken or if the broken sprockets that keep discovering were there before I received the print. I have inspected this print several times and find a broken sprocket here and there that I missed the time before. Nothing constant, just random broken sprockets throughout the print. Darryl and Gordon, Anything is possible. As far as adjusting the gate tension, is this a simple process I should consider trying to figure out on my own or should I leave it to a qualified tech? I assume the process for adjusting the gate tension would be explained in the manual for the head? Thank you guys for all of the responses so far. I have another "newbie" question regarding threading in frame. I have been taught/assumed that the view hole above the aperature is what is to be used for threading in frame. I can only get a changeover on screen in frame about half the time. I thread in frame according to the viewhole above the aperature. But the when I motor down to the correct number on the countdown it is out of frame again, requiring me to adjust my loops so it is in frame again. Am I doing something wrong? Could this indicate a problem with what is called the intermittent gear? I am not sure. Many times, even if it appears to be threaded in frame, it still hits the screen out of frame. I check the leader to make sure it is cut in frame with the film and it usually is. I do not get it. Thanks again for your time helping a newbie out. John  |  IP: Logged Victor Liorentas Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 800 From: london ontario canada Registered: May 2009 posted 06-21-2010 01:59 AM                     just a thought. Does the sound drum spin for a while after film is done or at all?  |  IP: Logged John Davey Film Handler Posts: 16 From: Chesterton, Indiana, USA Registered: Jun 2008 posted 06-21-2010 02:15 AM                     I do not think there is a sound drum to spin. It a red LED reader.  |  IP: Logged Victor Liorentas Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 800 From: london ontario canada Registered: May 2009 posted 06-21-2010 02:30 AM                     Where the led reader is located is the sound drum! The rollers at that point,which hold the film in front of the led are the sound drum which is kept in smooth check by a heavy flywheel. If not for this sound drum the led could not read sound accurately! I once had a sound drum seize up scratching the film!  |  IP: Logged James Westbrook Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1133 From: Lubbock, Texas, Usa Registered: Mar 2006 posted 06-21-2010 02:35 AM                     It's been almost 20 years since I last dealt with a Ballentine sound head but I believe even with a red-light LED set-up there still would be a sound drum, and that it should be spinning freely. These are not my favorite machines. Seems someone else beat me to the punch while I was recalling why we called these infernal machines "boat anchors" in my day. The pad rollers are also a pain to adjust and may be contributing to the breakage.  |  IP: Logged John Davey Film Handler Posts: 16 From: Chesterton, Indiana, USA Registered: Jun 2008 posted 06-21-2010 02:41 AM                     You're both right. It was a confusion on terms on my end. I alway referred to them as tensioners. They do spin freely and to my knowledge they stop spinning when the film exits the path. I'll double check them next time I go in though. James, Even in my limited knowledge, I agree. I do not like these head. They are way noisier than I think they should be. They just seem rough on film in general. I've seen Century heads in action and was much more pleased with what I saw/heard.  |  IP: Logged Ian Parfrey Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1049 From: Imbil Australia 26 deg 27' 42.66" S 152 deg 42' 23.40" E Registered: Feb 2009 posted 06-21-2010 02:51 AM                     quote: John Davey Many times, even if it appears to be threaded in frame, it still hits the screen out of frame. This could be pointing to the problem. Is the shoe on the intermittant sprocket adjusted to allow 2 film thicknesses? Now, assuming the leader IS correctly attached to the print, and that the projector runs poly print stock without dramas, then this COULD point to the intermittant shoe applying too much pressure on acetate stock, catching on the splice and breaking the film. Granted, there are a lot of "ifs and buts" here, but only by the process of elimination will the problem be solved. If the Pro 35 is mounted on a Ballantine soundhead, then it is highly likely that there will be a rotating sound drum- and this should spin freely for a few seconds after running. Again, a photo showing the threaded machine will go along way to helping us help you. Good luck  |  IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3

Printer-friendly view of this topic

Hop To: Select a Forum: Category: Operations -------------------- Digital Cinema Forum Film Handlers' Forum Large Format Forum Ground Level Feature Info, Trailer Attachments & REAL Credit Offsets Category: Community -------------------- Film-Yak Film Handlers' Movie Reviews The Afterlife Bob Maar's Joke-A-Thon Category: Classified -------------------- Equipment and Supplies Wanted/For Sale Help Wanted/Seeking Employment Category: System -------------------- Software Beta Testing Forum

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.