my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » Smart MOD IIB: Good or not good? (Page 1)

This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5

Author Topic: Smart MOD IIB: Good or not good? Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-10-2010 10:57 AM                     Quick answer to a quick question: "What do you think about the Smart MOD IIB cinema sound processor?" I have a reason for asking this question but I don't want to influence any answers in one direction or another by telling you why. I promise I'll tell you the reason when I get a few answers. T.I.A.  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 08-10-2010 12:10 PM                        Depends on the model you're asking about, I guess. I've had several of the "-DIT" drive-in variants. I found that having them here was somewhat better than running unprocessed analog tracks, but that's about it. The decoders don't track SR all that well... certainly nowhere near a Dolby card (did the Copy Cat do better? Wish I could have seen one). I suppose that's to be expected, but I hoped for better performance. In the models I had, the external input offered for a pre-amped microphone somehow managed to polarize the L/R output in opposite directions. That was another gripe... a drive-in processor that needed a preamp for a mic input. Being unbalanced, this issue required a balanced external preamp, so opposite polarities could be fed to the L/R inputs of the box. The power supplies weren't all that clean. There was audible hum in the box, and yes... that's where I tracked the source. 3 in one building, one in another theatre, all with the same problem. I had some problems with bad soldering on two backplanes, requiring total disassembly to get to them. The company admitted they had some issues here. Apparently, they were teaching new "techs" how to solder by having them practice on the boxes I got. Past that admission however, I got little help from Smart on this... Had to hunt & peck through the things to find the bad connections. The box did have a convenient control face. Inputs were easily selected, and it provided access on the terminal strip for control by automation. Dual analog inputs and backplane control would make for an easy changeover installation. Nonsync auto-fades. Can't say about its surround decoding or EQ... never used 'em. For the models I used, I'd give it a 'C'. Things around here improved dramatically after I installed CP65s.  |  IP: Logged Victor Liorentas Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 800 From: london ontario canada Registered: May 2009 posted 08-10-2010 02:34 PM                     I must say the Mod8 is the worst processor i have come across! If it weighed more it might make a good boat anchor? To be fair it passes Dolby Digital and DTS well and mono sounds ok. The first few weeks when it was new it was passable but it quickly lost matrix steering and sounded like we had blown speakers!  |  IP: Logged John T. Hendrickson, Jr Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 889 From: Freehold, NJ, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 08-10-2010 02:43 PM                     Interesting that you mention it. We have three of them, and as far as I'm concerned, they have seen better days. Were are pulling one this week that can't hold an EQ and replacing it with a JSD-80. Plan on pulling the other two shortly. I'm not a fan, and never have been. And I'm a guy with a tin ear to begin with.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-10-2010 04:32 PM                     Okay! Thanks for the opinions! Here's what's going on: We are considering an upgrade from our current Smart processor to a Dolby processor. We have spent a lot of time and trouble and money, over the years, trying to wring the best sound out of the system as we can. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to make much improvement. We have replaced speakers. We have changed the system in various ways. I recently did a complete A-chain and B-chain on the entire system. The system is aligned as well as I can and I dare say that it is aligned as well as it can be. The sound is better but not nearly good enough. It is my understanding that the Mod-IIB might have been a decent piece of equipment back in its day. It was meant to be a cheap, serviceable piece of equipment without a lot of bells and whistles. Unfortunately, times have changed. Movies have changed and the way movies are recorded has changed. In the current times with Dolby Surround, Dolby Digital and other advanced sound formats, the Smart processor just can't measure up anymore. Some might say that it never really did measure up in the first place. It was a cheap processor meant for drive-ins and small theaters to get on their feet so they didn't have to break the bank buying uber-expensive equipment. The main complaint we have is poor dialog. Dialog just sounds like crap. Most dialog sounds muffled, almost as if the actors are talking with a mouth full of food. It is my understanding that one of the most notable shortcomings of the Smart Mod-II B is the clear reproduction of dialog. No matter what you do, no matter how well you tune it, it is not possible to get it to reproduce stellar dialog. We have a difficult venue, sound wise. It is a very "live" concert hall. It has hard surfaced walls and, regardless of the type of production, concert, stage play or movie, any kind of recorded sound playback is difficult, even with the best equipment. A musician can stand on the stage, playing a violin without amplification and it can be heard, perfectly, at the back of the hall. A singer can sing from center stage and people can hear him, even from the nosebleed seats in the balcony. If you play plain music from a CD player, the sound system does well but it's not as good as live sound. If there is a concert on stage like a jazz band you have to be careful how you set up your speakers and mix your sound or else it will begin to sound "tinny" and muffled. When you show a movie, it's even worse. It is my belief that the Smart Mod-IIB is not up to the task. We're not a typical movie theater and, even in typical situations, the Smart would barely be up to the task even if it was set up perfectly. I am advising my boss to purchase a new sound processor and he wants assurance that it will make an improvement. I have done just about everything I can to convince him that a new processor would improve the sound in this venue, short of doing a rain dance. If I thought I would do any good I WOULD. What I need is corroboration of my opinion that replacing the Smart Mod-IIB is what we need to do. So, what do you all say?  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-10-2010 05:25 PM                        I know of a theatre that is very similar--live music sounds great, but movies sound like crap. Worse, film soundtracks sound different in different parts of the house (balcony, orchestra, and under balcony all sounded different). Somewhat annoyingly, the old mono film sound system (still there) gave the best dialogue intelligibility. It was just an Altec cabinet with a single 515 driver and a 288 horn, powered by a 50w Kelmar system. At various festivals and events, I and others experimented with different combinations of equipment. Straight left/right was the worst. L/C/R/S/sub. with a CP65 with real SR and 15" PA speakers was OK (real cat. 350s were noticeably better than the fake-SR cat. 222 SR/A). I also found that bumping the center channel by 1-2 dB made dialogue sound significantly better. I never had a chance to try an L/C/R/S Dolby system with real cinema speakers (JBL, QSC, Altec, etc.). I also never tried mono with SR (which would probably be an improvement over the Kelmar system). I also would have liked to have tried some sort of stage treatment (like flying fiberglass insulation behind the stage spekaers). I guess that what I am trying to say here (and I am not an acoustics expert) is that there may not be a good solution, or, if there is one, I would be very interested in hearing it. I was never able to convince anyone to pay to have someone with experience with cinema sound come out and listen to the room, unfortunately.  |  IP: Logged Randy Stankey Film God Posts: 6539 From: Erie, Pennsylvania Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-10-2010 07:46 PM                     I know that it's a tough room. You should have seen the cold stare I got last week when I took my boss that they only way to truly solve the problem would be to put sound insulation on all the walls and the ceiling. Music can sound great in that room. A jazz concert on the stage can sound as good as you could ever hope it would. Even when you play a movie with lots of music or a Met Opera, the sound is good. It's just the damned dialog that stinks. I have tried lots of things that you have mentioned. Playing in mono often helps but many times it doesn't. The best sounding movies are older titles that were recorded in Dolby Stereo. (Not Dolby SR.) Dual track mono prints play reasonably well. I even played a single track mono print once which sounded decent. I was surprised that it played at all on a stereo, dual track sound head. The worst prints are Dolby SR but that varies. Foreign titles are often better than current mainstream, Hollywood fare but, then again, they are often foreign language with subtitles so we don't get too many complaints about those movies. When it comes down to it, I think it has to to with the mix and not whether the movie was recorded Dolby SR. Aggressive mixes in mainstream Hollywood movies are the worst. We played Star Trek last winter. A lot of people liked the movie but I just cringed whenever there was a battle scene. The dialog and the sound effects and the music just blended together into this loud cacophony of screeching noises. I don't want perfect. I just want good. Theoretically, I wouldn't mind mono but a lot of people want to hear the program in stereo. This especially goes for the Met Operas. When it comes to the opera, people are strangely nit-picky about sound. Opera is, somehow, sacrosanct and people always want to hear "pin-drop" acoustics when, in reality, you wouldn't actually get that even if you were sitting front row at the Met.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 08-10-2010 11:09 PM                     Well there are several ways of looking at it the mod2b did a tolerable job for the price point it was designed around it did offer room eq a ganged fader a decent matrix a preamp that was designed around solar cells that did require a work around for reverse scan or jax lights and acceptable noise reductions Hum has not been an issue I have had since the powersupply was just brute force and the regulation was on each board in the many i deal with dialogue has not been the issue usually it is contacts that are getting bad or chips that are ageing  |  IP: Logged Demetris Thoupis Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1240 From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus Registered: Apr 2001 posted 08-11-2010 01:47 AM                     If its just analogue sound you seek I would double recommend the JSD80 from USL. Not only its a future proof processor, the SR and A noise reduction is excellent. I have the DTS equivalent at a college venue and it never let me down. They mainly run european films but the clarity of the speech is excellent and its a very demanding room. It has a lot of advanced features you would not expect at a processor that price range. Your other solution of course is to go Digital with DD and the CP650. The last thing is that you cannot make it worse! Edit: And in any case, SmartDev is dead. I have two cinemas with the Mod 7 processor and both of them have problems. Looking into changing them with CP45s I have.  |  IP: Logged Jack Ondracek Film God Posts: 2348 From: Port Orchard, WA, USA Registered: Oct 2002 posted 08-11-2010 02:23 AM                        quote: Randy Stankey Here's what's going on: We are considering an upgrade from our current Smart processor to a Dolby processor. You may have other issues that'll need attention. But if a CD player sounds good enough in your place, and the Smart box doesn't compare well, a new Dolby or USL proc should make a big difference.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 08-11-2010 10:28 AM                        You have two issues: 1. A room not designed to cinema acoustics standards (& film that expects that.) 2. A less-than-stellar processor. I would suggest a real CP-650 along with digital readers. This gives you a "great source." At that point you will almost certainly have to corrupt the sound some to get it to play in your difficult house. What you are doing now is a dual trouble matrix. Louis  |  IP: Logged Robert Minichino Master Film Handler Posts: 350 From: Haskell, NJ, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 08-11-2010 10:57 AM                        What speakers are you using for film sound? For a live room like you have, you want to have the highest directivity possible, and aim the speakers carefully so they cover just the audience and avoid reflective surfaces, particularly ones that will reflect toward the audience. The problem with multipurpose rooms is that a room that's good for unamplified live music (orchestra or even opera) is poor for speech and recorded music playback, and vice versa. There's just really no good way to be good at everything.  |  IP: Logged Demetris Thoupis Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1240 From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus Registered: Apr 2001 posted 08-11-2010 11:02 AM                     Yes there is. Use the Renkus Heinz Iconyx range and you'll be suprised.  |  IP: Logged Robert Minichino Master Film Handler Posts: 350 From: Haskell, NJ, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 08-11-2010 11:09 AM                        Demetris, I think those speakers have too-wide horizontal coverage for this application.  |  IP: Logged Tony Bandiera Jr Film God Posts: 3067 From: Moreland Idaho Registered: Apr 2004 posted 08-11-2010 01:04 PM                     Not so fast there Robert. Remember, we are talking about a room not optimized for cinema sound..so you need to think and be willing to go "outside the box" and take a hard look at what the specific problems are, and what the best gear would be to address the problem. If non-cinema spec speakers would help in improving the dialog clarity, then do it. If going outside the standard cinema EQ curve will improve the sound then do it. (I had to do the same at UC Irvine's HIB 100 room, pics up on the Warehouse here soon as they post them, due to the room being too live.) Randy's main issues are a sub-standard processor that is failing, and room not designed for film. I second the idea of an Ultra*Stereo processor, even one of the older analog JS series would be a huge improvement on the front end. After that, take a look at different speakers to help out with the dialog if necessary..and DON'T be afraid to "mix and match" speakers on the L/C/R if need be. Accept the fact that the room will never be THX certifiable, and do whatever it takes no matter how weird to get the best possible sound.  |  IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5

Printer-friendly view of this topic

Hop To: Select a Forum: Category: Operations -------------------- Digital Cinema Forum Film Handlers' Forum Large Format Forum Ground Level Feature Info, Trailer Attachments & REAL Credit Offsets Category: Community -------------------- Film-Yak Film Handlers' Movie Reviews The Afterlife Bob Maar's Joke-A-Thon Category: Classified -------------------- Equipment and Supplies Wanted/For Sale Help Wanted/Seeking Employment Category: System -------------------- Software Beta Testing Forum

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.