Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Is anyone running DD, DTS or SDDS with out a sub?

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Topic: Is anyone running DD, DTS or SDDS with out a sub?

Tom Petrov
Five Guys Lover

Posts: 1121
From: El Paso, TX
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 08-17-2010 05:52 PM

Ok, I have to ask this. I started working in the theatre industry in 1993. We were running DTS in two (1987) former THX certified theatres without subs. So were running 5 track digital.

Fast forward a few years later. I get transfered to a 10 plex, and to my surprised, no subs in the digital theatres.

I usally watched most movies at these theatres and I think my ears trained themeselves to like Digital without a sub. For years I watched movies at home without the sub, the sound normal that way.

Anyone else in this situation?

Note: I have currently gotten a sub for my home system and my new regular theatre uses subs in all DTS equipped theatres.

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Louis Bornwasser
Film God

Posts: 4441
From: prospect ky usa
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 08-17-2010 07:03 PM

There is no sub channel with dts, so you just heard normal sound. louis

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 08-17-2010 07:03 PM

5 of my six auditoriums do not have any subwoofers. Hell, when I arrived at this theater 5 out of the 6 auditoriums weren't even set up for stereo surround, but we had Dolby Digital in all of them. Instead, only the right surround signal went to all speakers which were wired together in one big, tangled rat's nest. I didn't have time to change this right away, so what I did was switch the surround amps so that both the left and right surround signals could at least be heard in the auditorium, albeit smooshed together into a single signal. Later on when I had the time, I rewired each speaker so now we have true stereo surround in each auditorium. Not sure why the $85-an-hour installer didn't bother to wire them correctly in the first place.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 08-18-2010 01:18 AM

A sound system without a subbass speakers is like Playboy without the centerfold....it's like Christmas without Santa Clause....it's like a Wurlitzer organ without the 32 and 64ft pipes. It gives a sound system it's kick. It's what makes it sound so much better than what they can get at home.

Listen, for the apparent improvement in the overall sound system at such an affordable price and for an upgrade so easy to install....you have to wonder WHY would anyone NOT install at least one hefty subbass unit?

Our motto is, you can't have too many subs. You want to make them feel it in the pit of their stomachs, and areas even further south. The guys who designed Earthquake knew if you could bring 'em close to sound induced orgasm with a 25hz warble tone at 160db, they'll come back time and time again and not even know why...hehe.

Hell, I first added two dual speaker subs when we were still running mono and it made the system sound so much richer. There was no subbass channel for 4trk mag, but we added them and a dbx subbass synthasizer and frequency halving processor -- knocked the socks off everyone; people always commented how much better our house sounded than our competition.

Subs make your patrons sit up and take notice and any sound system, whether or not it incorporates a distinct subbass channel or not -- even if it is the old mono or 4tk mag or all the way up to 7.1, they can all benefit from as many subbass bins as you can afford.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 08-18-2010 03:08 AM

Frank, I agree with your entire post except for this:

quote: Frank Angel
It's what makes it sound so much better than what they can get at home.

They do sell subwoofers for the home, y'know. I have two myself and they sound better than any current theater I've heard in the greater Denver-metro area. What's kind of funny is that most people will probably turn up their subwoofers way too high and think it sounds good. Then they'll go to the theater and think it sounds weak because it is closer to being properly tuned. I hate people.

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Greg Routenburg
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 178
From: Toronto, ON, Canada
Registered: May 2003

posted 08-18-2010 11:26 AM

I could be very much mistaken Louis but I'm pretty sure that there is a LFE or Sub channel on all 6 Channel DTS players. L,C,R,LS,RS & Sub. Alternately the surrounds were configurable as Mono depending on your theatre configuration.

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 08-18-2010 12:58 PM

The dts sub frequencies are in the surrounds. There is a crossover to obtain the sub channel. It doesn't sound as good as SRD or SDDS in this regard, but it works ok.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 08-18-2010 07:02 PM

..bet the floors weren't cut so the wall can be below the floorline, double sheetrocked and insulated, and raised high enough through the ceiling to keep the sub channel within the confines of the house, prob why subs weren't installed..

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Tom Petrov
Five Guys Lover

Posts: 1121
From: El Paso, TX
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 08-18-2010 08:45 PM

at monte

quote: Monte L Fullmer
.bet the floors weren't cut so the wall can be below the floorline, double sheetrocked and insulated, and raised high enough through the ceiling to keep the sub channel within the confines of the house, prob why subs weren't installed..

What do you mean the floors were not cut?

The individual theatres at the time were state of the art Cineplex Odeon theatres built for 1987. They were both THX Certified however they were not certified at the time of install.

Eventually, the theatres were re-certified for the Dolby Digital EX when Phantom Menace was released.

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 08-18-2010 10:35 PM

quote: Tom Petrov
floors were not cut?

LFs loves to go anywhere where it can, and even under walls over ceilings..et.al.

1987, we just got a hold of Dolby SR optical. Digital sound was lightyears away still .. and shoebox houses with shotgun seating arrangement covered in multicolored straw burlap wall covering with 12x24 ft screens hanging in the front were the norm with no masking..and you might still see some unbaffled A7's behind the screen which you could power with a quarter watt transistor radio and sounds good.

And with low powered amplifiers, who even thought of soundproofing a house from the house next door?

With Digital Sound, it became apparent that house designs and construction procedures had to drastically change for the massive increase of dB sound that digital can produce.

Gotta make that house like a soundproof box where it can trap sound from seeping out.

I've seen where the walls and ceiling meet being lined with lead sheeting to keep sound from "crawling out through the cracks"

-Monte

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 08-19-2010 01:13 PM

quote: Frank Angel
A sound system without a subbass speakers is like Playboy without the centerfold....it's like Christmas without Santa Clause....it's like a Wurlitzer organ without the 32 and 64ft pipes. It gives a sound system it's kick.

A sound system without subs equals a sound system with no balls. [Big Grin]

And sadly too many people don't install enough subs to cover the room size. Which results in repeated blown subs..the cost of which could have been spent on installing the right number of subs in the first place. When I serviced theatres for RCA/NCS, those auditoria with enough subs never blew them out (But here in So Cal dry rot of the cone surrounds is a problem).

Now Brad knows how to install the correct number of subs..check out his screening room pics!! [thumbsup]

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Monte L Fullmer
Film God

Posts: 8367
From: Nampa, Idaho, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted 08-19-2010 01:17 PM

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
too many people don't install enough subs to cover the room size.

Yea, saw a pict of a house that has well close to 300 seats, all JBL loaded and only one sub bin on the floor...

..either some tech didn't know how to spec out a house, or the owner went cheap and cut corners to justify...

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-19-2010 01:45 PM

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
And sadly too many people don't install enough subs to cover the room size. Which results in repeated blown subs..the cost of which could have been spent on installing the right number of subs in the first place.

This is a very common problem. A lot of theater operators may think they have sub-bass drivers in their auditoriums. But if the speakers are blown or turned down low to prevent damage (or as response to loudness complaints) the theater might as well not have any bass drivers at all.

Digital cinema has done little if anything at all to solve this common problem. Many commercial theaters have wimpy sound. It's yet another sales point for home theater systems.

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Richard Hamilton
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1341
From: Evansville, Indiana
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 08-19-2010 02:10 PM

At Megasystems, I think the smallest house I installed had 4 subs. Typically we put in either 6 or 8 in 1 room.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99

posted 08-19-2010 02:46 PM

I agree with Bobby. Theaters need to start being cheap and install kick-ass sound systems in EVERY auditorium, venue permitting. For example, it would be kind of impractical at my theater because fairly thin walls and doors that don't do much to block the sound from adjacent auditoriums.

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