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Author Topic: Small Diagonal Scratches Sally Ann Burgess Expert Film Handler Posts: 120 From: Queenstown, New Zealand Registered: Apr 2008 posted 08-24-2010 02:11 AM                     We have damaged two prints in the last 6 months exactly the same way but I am really puzzled as to how they happened. The scratches are on the emulsion side and during dark scenes there is the odd fleck of green. We use Kinoton Fp30 projectors and AW3 platters and we thread soundtrack side up on the deck. I tried to replicate the scratches today by misthreading a trailer every way I could think of. The angle of the scratches tells me it has been dragged across a roller but I couldn't make those scratches. They look like this.....  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 08-24-2010 02:50 AM                     Are they slightly curved? In my experience, scratches caused by being slightly off a flanged roller, or dragging across the edge of the take-up platter deck look a like that, but often have a slight curve to them. Scratches across the film like that, I'd be having a look at the adjustment of the last guide roller before each take-up deck, usually it's pivoted (I'm not 100% familiar with the AW3, haven't seen one for 10 years), if the roller is too low or can move out of position, the film gets dragged over the edge of the deck as it turns. I've seen it happen that way a few times on Strong platters.  |  IP: Logged Manny Montes Master Film Handler Posts: 270 From: United States Registered: Feb 2010 posted 08-24-2010 03:36 AM                     definitely sounds like platter scratches, are your platters warped to the point that the film may be bouncing against it as it takes up?  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 08-24-2010 03:58 AM                        That is 100% a roller scratch. Likely the roller on the take-up arm on the Christie (the one under each deck) got twisted as the film rode over it. Not twisted enough so the film would fall off, stop the platter and the movie, unfortunately. I have never seen this happen personally, but that is really the only way is CAN happen on a Christie if it was emulsion scratches. It can also happen on a Strong platter with the roller that leads straight on to the take-up deck, slightly cocked inward. I can't duplicate it, either, but it is the only way possible. I have an assistant manager who has done this. The film eventually falls off the roller as the size of the roll on the take-up deck grows and the emulsion scratches stop at that point. Not sure how he does it, but he has done it twice. Both times he told me the movie stopped before the credits for some odd reason and sure enough, so do the scratches.  |  IP: Logged Darryl Spicer Film God Posts: 3250 From: Lexington, KY, USA Registered: Dec 2000 posted 08-24-2010 10:38 AM                    Joe is correct and unfortunately I have seen it happen when I have come in to run the booth and discover that the person before me was an idiot and did not check the rollers like they have been shown and told a thousand times. Breath.....Breath.....oh that said person no longer works in the booth.  |  IP: Logged Joe Elliott Master Film Handler Posts: 497 From: Port Orange, Fl USA Registered: Oct 2006 posted 08-24-2010 01:04 PM                     Same here, I agree take up arm roller scratch. We had a kid that would thread up forward, and when he would pull the film up to activate the take up, he would then let the film from his hand drop. Try it, 3 out of 4 times the take up roller will turn at an angle. He would of course never check his rollers. It was not long before we replaced him.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 08-24-2010 04:12 PM                     Yep, good ol' AW3's love to make them if the film isn't tracking in the rollers correctly. Check any of the tension areas in the film travel .. quote: Joe Redifer the roller that leads straight on to the take-up deck, slightly cocked inward , plus, if you have a brain wrap, the roller spindle will be slightly angling up since the bracket that the spindle is mounted on gets bent up due to this wrap. If you got a roller that isn't close to that keeper, bet the bracket is bent. Good luck - Monte  |  IP: Logged Sally Ann Burgess Expert Film Handler Posts: 120 From: Queenstown, New Zealand Registered: Apr 2008 posted 08-25-2010 01:46 AM                     Thanks for your input gents. Manny, I'm 100% certain they are not platter scratches...the action is fairly low between the film and the platters on that particular deck, but the scratches would be on the base side...and the scratches would be a lot wider I think, and not at such an angle. Oh well, something else to add to the "Scratches" section of my Procedures Manual!! Cheers all.  |  IP: Logged Manny Montes Master Film Handler Posts: 270 From: United States Registered: Feb 2010 posted 08-25-2010 03:10 AM                     totally right, I guess i breezed right past the part that said "emulsion scratches" and just looked at the black lines on your wonderful diagram  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 08-25-2010 05:42 AM                     Check Joe's post above. It is most likely as he describes, although I must admit like himself, I find it quite difficult to get the film to sit crooked and dragging partway around that roller on the takeup arm, but it IS possible if you get it misthreaded just right.  |  IP: Logged Sally Ann Burgess Expert Film Handler Posts: 120 From: Queenstown, New Zealand Registered: Apr 2008 posted 08-25-2010 07:06 AM                     Brad, I was actually able to misthread incorrectly around the take up roller but it was pretty hard to do...it either just slipped back into place or off altogether. And I couldn't see any scratches when I DID succeed in doing that! I know now that it must have been that, but I'm determined to cause those scratches on an unused trailer to see for myself. It just seems so hard to do!  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 08-25-2010 12:31 PM                        You won't be able to see the scratches until the next pass. I'm wondering if Joe Elliot is onto something, it might have to do with the way someone pulls the takeup for tension when threading from the projector. I always do this with Christies (Strongs, too), but I never just let it drop or free-fall.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 08-25-2010 12:48 PM                     Since I have AW3's, the area of possible scratching is in the brain itself. Since you got two rollers with tension springs underneath to press the film onto the middle roller, this creates the rear roller to actually "feed" the film around that center roller. What I found is that if one doesn't pull the film through the brain tight enough when lacing through the rollers, the film will actually "loop" around the center roller-not even in contact with the outer flanges of that center roller due to this even pressure from the two outer rollers. And with this film "looping" it's actually curling a bit where it will rub against the face of one of those tension rollers. Some ideas to throw out .. - Monte  |  IP: Logged Sally Ann Burgess Expert Film Handler Posts: 120 From: Queenstown, New Zealand Registered: Apr 2008 posted 08-25-2010 03:52 PM                     I've trained my guys to pull the film for tension BEFORE lacing the lower constant feed sprocket, never just to yank it. Not because I thought the film would get scratched on that take up arm roller, but because we used to lace the sprocket and THEN pull for tension...one day I did that and for some reason the take up arm kept coming in and in. I didn't react in time and the whole roller snapped off. Yep, Joe's onto something there! It's just a bit disappointing when I've also hammered into staff to check constantly that their prints are laced up properly.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 08-25-2010 06:43 PM                        Sounds like you do as I do, pull the take-up first and then thread through the failsafe and lock it down on the lower constant feed. Christies require a gentle tug, Strongs actually require quite a yank or the platter will fight you for the leader, but never, ever let it drop no matter what platter you use... pull and hold, then thread up.  |  IP: Logged

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