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Topic: LPP film stock fading

Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 05-19-2011 10:52 AM

In the warehouse is a clip that was sent to me from an LPP print that shows the most unusual color fading. I've never seen anything like it. I recognize the movie as Contact from 1997 and I recall that was on polyester base film stock. Here are some points that came with the clip:

This only affected some of the reels with no pattern to it (for example, not alternating reels) and it was no better or worse at the ends of each reel.
This only affected a small area of the image down the center, the sides of the image are fine.
This print is in otherwise excellent condition.
This same print was played a few years ago and there was no color fading at that time.
A physical inspection of the print revealed absolutely no hint of even minor embossing.
A physical inspection of the print verified the surface on both sides looked "lab new".
The edgecode markings read "386 30 Kodak IX 1997".

Anyone have any ideas??? I have never heard of an LPP print fading before, so this would not be good news to find out that LPP filmstocks on polyester base can fade like this.

Watch the clip here. (Don't forget you can click "large view" to see the video larger.)

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Sean Weitzel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Vacaville, CA (1790 miles west of Rockwall)
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-19-2011 11:03 AM

you mean 1997 not 1977 right?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 05-19-2011 11:05 AM

That's what I said. [Razz]

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Victor Liorentas
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 800
From: london ontario canada
Registered: May 2009

posted 05-19-2011 11:29 AM

I have not seen an lpp print do this but my first thought is that it was run with a hot spot in the center early in it's life.
Perhaps not enough to burn it but over time make it do what it is doing now.

I hope it's not fading like Eastman [Frown]

I have noticed blacks become lighter in older lpp on occasion.

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Sean Weitzel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 619
From: Vacaville, CA (1790 miles west of Rockwall)
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-19-2011 11:37 AM

That's very unusual and unsettling. If it wasn't for the fact that the print was reportedly ok a few years prior I would say lab error. One thing that comes to mind, was this title subject to that beach bypass processing technique that was all the rage in the later 90's ?

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 05-19-2011 11:41 AM

I am positive it wasn't. The movie didn't have that "look".

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Fred Georges
Master Film Handler

Posts: 257
From: Lombard, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 05-19-2011 11:42 AM

Bet its just Improper washing from sloppy lab work that finally caught up with the print. If it were truly fading I think it would be over the entire surface of the frame & not just down the center. I have rescued some poly Lpp prints from unbelievably horrid storage conditions (heat & humidity) & have never seen an issue like this. [Confused]

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 05-19-2011 11:46 AM

quote: Victor Liorentas
my first thought is that it was run with a hot spot in the center early in it's life.
Perhaps not enough to burn it but over time make it do what it is doing now.

That's why I asked about the embossing. The report back was that there wasn't the slightest hint of it.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-19-2011 01:29 PM

LPP if processed properly is supposed to last 100 years. So most likely it was not handled correctly in the lab. Either was not washed or some chemical contaminant is still in the emulsion causing it to deterioate over time. I used to know all the steps to processing eastman color but can't remember them today... not that many steps really although there is/was a stabilization step at the end and this film may have missed that step or the stabilizer solution may not have been any good.

Mark

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 05-19-2011 01:40 PM

Clearly it's an alien message embedded in the signal. Has anyone tried to decode it?

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Jim Bedford
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 597
From: Telluride, CO, USA (733 mi. WNW of Rockwall, TX but it seems much, much longer)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-19-2011 01:54 PM

I'd also guess it was a processing issue that's an anomaly. I know there's always the fear that it could be just the tip of the iceberg, but although I've never seen this particular flaw, I've seen a number of single film, intermittent anomalies over the years that look like fading, over/underexposure, etc. Of course, the real issue would be if such a wavering fade comes to exist in other LPP prints as time goes on. But I doubt that will happen.

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Gordon McLeod
Film God

Posts: 9532
From: Toronto Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-19-2011 03:18 PM

I would want to see if that pattern is streaked or splattered looking
One of the early problems with polystcok was the magenta layer delaminating and causing blotches
the worst was the fugitive

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

posted 05-19-2011 03:28 PM

My first guess would also be that somebody hot spotted the lamp.
If that was the case, not only would there be embossing but the problem would occur on every reel or every other reel.
(If it was run reel-to-reel when one lamp was hot spotting and the other wasn't.)

Is it possible that, somewhere along the line, some reels got shuffled between prints in a half-baked attempt to hide somebody's mistake?

If the film wasn't damaged in a projector the only logical reason would have to be poor processing. [Shrug]

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 17775
From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall)
Registered: May 99

posted 05-19-2011 03:57 PM

Randy, apparently this entire print is in near-mint condition. The odds reels were jumbled between prints is a far fetched one. Even if ran on 2 projectors, the theory doesn't hold any water because it wasn't all odd or even reels (or 6K-mounted quantities).

Gordon, I recall on The Fugitive there were a ton of prints locally that had to be exchanged for new ones. My two prints were flawless and did not deteriorate (un-released FilmGuard). Curiously though other theaters in town did not suffer any problem, and there was never an instance where one of the two prints within the same building had the issue. The only pattern I could find was that every single theater that had problems used XeKote on the edges of the film as a lubricant. Every single theater that did not have problems did not use XeKote at all in their booths. (This informal analysis was between different theater locations and chains from people I knew and with the help of the local union for additional research.)

I think on The Fugitive it was a one-off problem, because some theaters continued to use XeKote and never had the issue again. Regardless it was all over the picture, not restricted to one location in the center of the image.

Remember though on this print, physically upon close inspection it is in lab new condition with no signs of any sort of deterioration. This same print also supposedly had no issues a few years ago.

Obviously if any rep houses are going to be booking Contact, please let us know how the print is. Likewise, does anyone have a list of Warner Brothers movies released +/- a year of Contact? I would be curious to see if anyone books those titles and if those prints show any issues.

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Manny Knowles
"What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???"

Posts: 4247
From: Bloomington, IN, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 05-19-2011 04:11 PM

I know you said the print looked fine but FWIW I once received a used print of BRAVEHEART less than 6 months after initial release. During inspection, I noticed that the individual frames seemed to have been slightly burned, presumably by a hot spot from the lamp of a previous user. When projected on-screen, it looked a lot like what we're seeing in this clip.

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