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Author Topic: Shadows in the scope format. Leonardo Miceli Film Handler Posts: 12 From: mexico city, Mexico Registered: Jul 2007 posted 06-19-2011 11:29 AM                     Hi friends. I need some help. I have 9 cfs2000 consoles with a simplex pr1060. I also have floating screens (flat) in all the auditoriums. The problem is, when the format is in scope, there are shadows in the top and buttom of the image. I need to know if this shadows are normal or what can be causing this problem? the projector angle could be a factor? because all the projectors have more than 10°. Thanks for your help! Leonardo I´m attaching a picture of the problem, the yellow line indicates the screen, and the red box shows the shadows.  |  IP: Logged Victor Liorentas Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 800 From: london ontario canada Registered: May 2009 posted 06-19-2011 12:18 PM                     This looks like the edges of your aperture plate which would normally fall on your masking curtain. The closer your aperture plate is to the film during projection,the smaller the shadow. Is your gate close stop set exactly right? The plates may be filed poorly or are a type with too much space between the film built in.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 06-19-2011 02:27 PM                     Well before you completely blame the apperture plate is the correct lens installed? I have seen many floating frames where since they are typically a fixed aspect ratio they do not fill them in the scope format  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 06-19-2011 04:51 PM                     True though, looks like the prime lenses are not the right focal length to fill the screen. I used to work in a 6plex cinema that had floating screens (and hated them horribly for such since you can't have sharp corners since they were unmasked..) and this is how my scope presentations were also .. blurred edges. I had PR1050's with curved gates, but with the older single aperture plate setup, and the PR1060's, were close in design outside of that unfortunate swing gate. I absolutely recognize this problem being that the aperture plate is so far back behind the film plane (about a good quarter inch) in the trap and gate assembly that these shadows are created when the light leaves the aperture plate and enters the film. If the film was a lot close to the aperture plate, these shadows don't have a chance to be created. Thus, we can more blame the machine setup than the aperture plate if this is so. Only trick that I did to minimize these shadows was to actually over cut the aperture plate then mask the windows with black tape so the bleedover wasn't too noticable, but gave me more of a better filled screen in scope. Flat: I bet your image on the screen is terribly surrounded by these shadows.  |  IP: Logged Chase Pickett Expert Film Handler Posts: 142 From: Irving, Texas, USA Registered: Nov 2010 posted 06-19-2011 04:59 PM                     I'm guessing your best bet would be to put some tape on the port glass to cut down on the shadows. Just make sure it's tape that won't leave any stickiness behind.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 06-19-2011 05:39 PM                        The "tape on the port glass" method doesn't help much if at all. Since the port glass is so far from the focal plane of the lens it will do nothing but create very soft shadows.  |  IP: Logged Leonardo Miceli Film Handler Posts: 12 From: mexico city, Mexico Registered: Jul 2007 posted 06-19-2011 08:09 PM                     the gate closes fine, and the lenses are correctly calculated and installed, and yes, in the flat format is surrounded by these shadows, but in this case over cut the plates leaving these shadows out the screen. is there any other explanation for this problem or something else I can do to fix it? Thanks  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 06-19-2011 08:29 PM                        Remove aperture plates completely to see if there is enough "picture." Shadows should also be gone gone. Remember on XL, you can only move the gate until the intermittent shoes become tangent to the sprocket. Sometimes the aperture plate does not seat completely. Louis  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 06-19-2011 10:04 PM                     Course, big prob with the PR-1060's was the INT shoe attached to the swing gate, and if that shoe (or sprocket, in that matter) aren't aligned precisely with each other on closure, catastrophic stuff happens. I do believe that the PR-1060's uses the slider aperture plate that the Mil2K units adopted. Ya, I was going to mention what Louis said above, but forgot to include that - to take the aperture plate out and see where you're all at with with a no-aperture presentation. Thus, I bet that your plates were then undercut, which buys you room for trim.  |  IP: Logged Michael Brown Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1522 From: Bradford, England Registered: May 2001 posted 06-20-2011 10:43 AM                     Hold on....the yellow line is the edges on the screen? What ratio is the screen? Is it a flat ratio screen and you are showing the scope image letterboxed across the middle?  |  IP: Logged Leonardo Miceli Film Handler Posts: 12 From: mexico city, Mexico Registered: Jul 2007 posted 06-20-2011 11:00 AM                     That's right, it's a flat screen.  |  IP: Logged Robert Minichino Master Film Handler Posts: 350 From: Haskell, NJ, USA Registered: Dec 2005 posted 06-20-2011 11:06 AM                        If you don't have masking, you're going to get soft edges on one of your formats no matter what you do. Projectors differ in their ability to project a sharp frame edge (as others have said, the closer the aperture plate is to the film, the better), and you can file the aperture plate with a bevel to try to sharpen the edge further, but it's still not going to be as sharp as it would be with masking.  |  IP: Logged Michael Brown Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1522 From: Bradford, England Registered: May 2001 posted 06-20-2011 11:31 AM                     quote: Monte L Fullmer Ya, I was going to mention what Louis said above, but forgot to include that - to take the aperture plate out and see where you're all at with with a no-aperture presentation. It's scope projection on a flat screen, that would leave him with the bottom of the previous frame and top of the next frame visible on screen. The high tech solution to this problem would be to switch out the film projector for a digital - no plate shadow there ...could there be a low tech solution like making some black strips of some kind of material to stick on the top and bottom of the screen when projecting scope.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 06-20-2011 12:34 PM                     quote: Michael Brown would be to switch out the film projector for a digital - no plate shadow there ...lol .. got $62K+USD then..? I've seen, 1x10's painted flat black, or covered with black dubitene fabric for masking strips..  |  IP: Logged Frank Angel Film God Posts: 5305 From: Brooklyn NY USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 06-20-2011 12:35 PM                        The Final Solution would be to have a PROPER screen and masking that match the actual aspect ratio of the picture being projected. As has been already said, if your screen is physically larger than the image and you don't have masking, you will ALWAYS have this kind of blur edge -- it's part of the nature of the film/aperture/optics. The solution is have a correctly designed screen and masking system....you know, like real theatres do. Or invest in digital. And then you might have a better looking image edge, but it STILL wouldn't be properly masked; it just won't be so obvious, but a MISTAKE nontheless.  |  IP: Logged

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