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Author Topic: setting levels Jim Henk Master Film Handler Posts: 364 From: San Diego, CA Registered: Feb 2006 posted 12-30-2011 01:47 AM                     I'd like to continue a topic that unfortunately had to be deleted. Rightfully so, of course, as the topic heading violated forum rules, and was given plenty of notice to correct it before deletion. Good job, no doubt. But as for the conversation itself: the submitter asked for guidance in sound alignment. He didn't use these words, but he meant both A-Chain, and B-Chain. What caught my attention were the responses. They largely consisted of urgings to let the professionals handle it. I couldn't agree less. Cost of equipment was cited. First, a quick search for an RTA and oscilloscope told me that it would cost about the same as a good head and soundhead if somebody's really all that interested. There is also oscilloscope and RTA software and USB hardware available for a lot less, and for both Mac and Windows machines. Buzz tracks and the like turn up from time to time. There are a few currently eBaying right now for about $20 bucks each. What really got me were responses that kinda hinted at job security stuff. I'm a hobbyist now. But I was "on the board" (everybody's last moment relief) in union booths in both the Los Angeles and Orange County locals until I left the field many years ago. And I ran into a *lot* of this. Folks wouldn't teach, because why would they be needed, after all if the newest guy could do what they knew. Can we not do that? Typical example of enforced ignorance: right now, I've got a CP200 with a signal that isn't making it all the way through. The details of that aren't important. What *is* important is that it's inexcusable (on me, that is...) that I didn't have a holistic enough idea of what to look for because it was all kept a deep dark secret. Another example: there was a class in 504 that all new guys were supposed to take essentially learning how to field strip an E-7 and put it back together again properly. Just an example machine, of course, but it would give good springboard material for the future. Trouble was, nobody was willing to take the time to teach the class. Ever. The guy who wanted to learn how to align a sound system was hungry to learn. He who puts out the energy to learn should be taught. That's just how I feel, anyway.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 12-30-2011 02:18 AM                     I left a comment in that deleted post (which was removed as I was sending it, thus it never made it to be seen or read..) about my experiences in learning tech stuff: No, these guys will never teach, but as for me as a simple projectionist, I started to ask questions left and right from the get-go where I started at a 'mom and pop' drive-in and the owner would have a tech come from out of state to service his drive-in prior to the beginning of the season. This is where I took the "plunge" in wanting to learn-and to do so is by asking questions. Then, when I moved to indoor houses is when the techs came around for their contracted service visits to the theatre that I was working at. I then, was doing the same-asking questions left and right, to where they would show me how to do things and where I picked up the knowledge real quick. Towards the end of the usage of these technicians, I was like an assistant to them from the knowledge that I was shown by asking and showing interest. Doing so, it got them out quicker and the task was still completed and accurate. Plus, being mechanically minded as I am, I also began to study the parts manuals to understand how the machine ran in proper order with the correct parts in their respective places. Thus, I just "took the plunge" head first and not worrying on the consequences afterwards. Yet, made the mistakes as I was going along where I definitely learned from them. It's kind of a 'brotherhood' sort of thing - it's "their" trade and only to be shared amongst the other technicians. Outsiders, in their experiences, really don't show that much interest, nor care how it's done - they just want it to run correctly and properly.  |  IP: Logged Jim Henk Master Film Handler Posts: 364 From: San Diego, CA Registered: Feb 2006 posted 12-30-2011 03:13 AM                     My point exactly! Thank you, Monte. The guy was asking questions. A great answer for somebody still working in the booth. Hope he's still reading. Of course somebody *not* working there, the research gets a little more difficult, because as well as something may be written, you would very often need somebody to check with, who can show you: "No, that actually needs a lot more accurate clearance than just adjusting by eye...", etc. Not an easy answer. BTW, never have actually seen a good discussion of the actual steps of an A-chain... Be fun to stick a loop on a soundhead with a variety of pickup styles on a bench, hooking up a scope, and know what the heck you're doing. Weird, yes, but stamp collecting has never done it for me. I put a new head to soundhead interface gear on a head I have, and pounded it onto the shaft. Mentioned it to someone, and was properly berated for pounding anything onto anything. May have done damage. We'll see. At least I did it to my own machine. Get the idea? Not an easy answer, at all.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 12-30-2011 04:03 AM                     ..just hope you had a block of wood inbetween the gear and the hammer...or used a brass, or plastic head hammer... Sometime, that is what happens ... rules have to get bent to fit and fix the situation at times. quote: Jim Henk BTW, never have actually seen a good discussion of the actual steps of an A-chain A good guess why there will never be one is that, 1)-each tech might have his own slight unique way in doing the service, and 2)-that tech doesn't want to be held liable for what he is saying/teaching to his 'student' in case that 'student' fubars something up when that student attempts the same task, that 'student' then has a reason to come back at who taught him..and possibly that tech might be associated/employed with a service/supply company, and they don't need any liability issues either. Also, to add in defense to the techs, is that showing and talking slows them down and they are on a time clock of sorts in as well as trying to be done in a reasonable time to save their customer a bit on the charge on the service bill.  |  IP: Logged Jim Henk Master Film Handler Posts: 364 From: San Diego, CA Registered: Feb 2006 posted 12-30-2011 04:54 AM                     Yes I did, thankfully, and too true. I wonder how long this is still going to be an issue. Not a lot of knowledge being held back on stagecoach making anymore... And not a lot of 35mm's being installed any longer. A few special purpose situations, but not many. Anybody here a former tech, and feels like doing an article with a lot of disclaimers? The manuals in the Warehouse all start out with a coversheet warning the user that they are on their own as far as risk is concerned. Sounds very reasonable to me.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 12-30-2011 08:02 AM                        When I serviced 35mm, I thought of myself as primarily a teacher, less so a maintenance guy. There is always enought "trouble" to keep you in business; it is not necessary to keep people ignorant. Besides, the ones you teach either succeed (Yay!) or fail (more work for you.) My biggest problem was after the owners refused to let their operators learn. They were specifically kept out of the booth while I was there. Louis  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-30-2011 09:30 AM                     Well just my 2 cents worth no problem wanting to learn then do so all the people who work sucessfully in this industry have invested a lot of money and time buying test gear, and paying for courses to do what we do and then adapting that to practical field experience. The other point is I have had all too often had to loose a lot of time making repairs to systems that well intentioned people played with A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing  |  IP: Logged Richard Hamilton Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1341 From: Evansville, Indiana Registered: Jan 2000 posted 12-30-2011 10:39 AM                     I have no problem teaching or giving advice. When I worked here locally, the projectionists were always scared to call me (I don't know why). But I would talk them through any problems that I could over the phone. When I asked the person I trained before I left the company he just said "you're Rick"! At Kerasotes I taught a training class, but it was for regional managers. At Megasystems we would bring in techs from the venues we were installing and they would spend a week at our shop tearing down and rebuilding a projector. At Strong I was supposed to hold training classes, but I left. Makes it easier when you are on call 24/7 and have to drive across town in the middle of dinner or book a flight overseas. Talking someone through a problem over the phone is alot easier. As far as the sound, I didn't want anyone touching the settings once I was done. All password protected. I was doing work at the IMAX theater at the Museum of Natural History in N.Y. and the guys in the booth wanted me to change some stuff on the Media Matrix (sound system)they had seen the password. I refused and told them to call their local techs from the company that installed it. They just wanted to "adjust" some settings. It was installed by a professional audio company from N.Y. Rick  |  IP: Logged Jim Henk Master Film Handler Posts: 364 From: San Diego, CA Registered: Feb 2006 posted 12-30-2011 12:30 PM                     quote: Gordon McLeod A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing It certainly is. Of course, didn't everyone here go through a point of having "a little knowledge"? Sure glad they didn't stop just because of that.  |  IP: Logged Sean Weitzel Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 619 From: Vacaville, CA (1790 miles west of Rockwall) Registered: Dec 1999 posted 12-30-2011 12:58 PM                     Also being like Jim and just a hobbiest I realized early on that the information isn't readily available outside of equipment manuals but reading this board for 10 years really helped me gain a lot of knowledge about the field. Having said that, one thing I have never seen anyone comment on or describe is how to make and thread test loops. I can never figure out the best way to safely get a loop running without it shredding or getting in the way of the lens.. Also having trouble figuring out how to properly make a 70mm tone loop and where to thread it in the penthouse. Anyone have any tips?  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 12-30-2011 01:21 PM                       I assume Sean has Century JJ's? 35mm loops need to be run through the entire projector and work best if you have a weighted roller on the bottom of the loop to keep it from backing up into the projector. Keeping the loop from getting in front of the lens is always a problem. A well placed paper clip or other widget at the top of the projector will keep it out of the way. As to 70mm; I always ran loops only through the penthouse and the top sprocket. It is impractical to run through the entire projector as back in the acetate day you would ruin 12 feet of film all at once if anything went wrong. If you work at it you can come up with an exact size loop that will not require removal of the top sprocket stripper. I did this hundreds of times on TAP and studio calls as the less you disturbed the projectors, the less trouble you got into. (I learned this the hard way in Vancouver, BC on a preview of "Altered States". I removed the chrome loop size detector from a AA11 to run loops. One end ties to a microswitch in the back of the AA and it was just itching to break after 20 years and did so. This resulted in having to remove the lamphouse (carbon arc) to get to the back of the projector. That's 90 minutes of stress I would rather avoid.) Now, if the loop is polyestar, the loop must be the exact size so as not to create standing waves of film or all hell can break loose in the JJ and result in bent rollers and even a stripped gear.  |  IP: Logged Sean Weitzel Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 619 From: Vacaville, CA (1790 miles west of Rockwall) Registered: Dec 1999 posted 12-30-2011 01:49 PM                     Yes Sam.. JJ's with a turret. Thanks for that advice very helpful!  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 12-30-2011 01:56 PM                     quote: Sam D. Chavez create standing waves of film or all hell can break loose in the JJ and result in bent rollers and even a stripped gear. Ya, tell me on that one...was doing dolby alignment on a CAT701 mounted on an PR-1050 after replacing the LED. Had a loop of new trailer to check dolby track and just using the upper sprocket to do the pulldown. Loop got away and wrapped itself around the upper sprocket, seized up the sprocket super tight and shredded the fibre gear attached to the shaft. Luckily, we had a spare gear, but had to clean out the back side of shredded fibre and clean out the oil sump. Then, had to realign the vertical shaft assembly so both end gears were aligned since that sudden stop also jarred that assembly out of alignment. Life's little lessons to learn from.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 12-30-2011 02:31 PM                     Okay...I'm in the chat room right now...all questions answered...you've got 5-minutes... ...I was in the chat room for 15-minutes and there were no questions...see...no interest.  |  IP: Logged Jim Henk Master Film Handler Posts: 364 From: San Diego, CA Registered: Feb 2006 posted 12-30-2011 04:44 PM                     quote: Steve Guttag ...I was in the chat room for 15-minutes and there were no questions...see...no interest. Well, ya got us all there. Good job.  |  IP: Logged

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