my profile | my password | search | faq & rules | forum home

» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Film Handlers' Forum   » CS Perfs "Fox Hole Perfs" (Page 1)

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2

Author Topic: CS Perfs "Fox Hole Perfs" Paul Gordon Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 580 From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Registered: Aug 2005 posted 11-16-2012 08:57 AM                        For those who may not have seen Foxhole Perfs. Used by 20th Century Fox back in the day. I guess they sent projector sprockets to theatres so they could play back the prints.  |  IP: Logged Robert E. Allen Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1078 From: Checotah, Oklahoma Registered: Jul 2002 posted 11-16-2012 09:35 AM                     I'm staring at the film strip trying to understand what you want us to see. It looks like an ordinary strip of 35mm film I saw from 1945 until I retired in 2007. Please explain.  |  IP: Logged Paul Gordon Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 580 From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Registered: Aug 2005 posted 11-16-2012 09:40 AM                        really look at the perfs on the left do they look normal? there almost square -pg  |  IP: Logged Richard P. May Expert Film Handler Posts: 243 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Jan 2006 posted 11-16-2012 10:07 AM                     In the early days of CinemaScope, when magnetic sound tracks were placed on both sides of the sprocket holes, print stock was produced with narrower holes. New sprockets were required in projectors to accomodate this film. No, I don't think the sprockets were supplied by the distributors. It was another expense for the exhibitor when converting projectors, screens, sound systems to play 'scope prints and magnetic sound. The sprockets with narrower teeth could run any type print stock, and quickly became standard for 35mm projectors. With the elimination of mag striped prints, the "Fox-hole" film stock was no longer necessary. It got its name because 20th Century Fox introduced CinemaScope, and consequently the need for the different print stock.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 11-16-2012 11:47 AM                        quote: Richard P. May The sprockets with narrower teeth could run any type print stock... Would the vibration of the film caused by full-sized perfs not sitting snugly through the sprocket teeth not cause damage to the edges of the perfs themselves? If not, I wonder if the sprocket teeth fitted as standard to modern projector mechanisms are Foxhole-compliant of not. I've just had a quick look at the ones in our booth (Cinemeccanica Vic 5), and the sprockets look too large at the base to me. It would be interesting to get my hands on some Foxhole footage and find out for sure. I have only shown a 35mm combined mag print once in my life, on a DP-70, and can't remember having to change the dual profile sprockets for it. So I'm guessing that this machine at least had sprockets that worked with both types of perforation without any swapping needed.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-16-2012 12:46 PM                     CS sprockets were indeed used by most all machines after that. Note, the tooth was never wall-to-wall on the perforation. VKF sprockets by LaVezzi were CS compliant though with any appreciable amount of shrinkage in the film the VKF sprocket would be an issue as the film could no longer seat...this was particularly true in the Intermittent where the tighter radius would get one into trouble on shrunken film. The last generation of VKFs...the VKF-2 was not CS compliant but by then little or no CS film was being made. Note, even LaVezzi's Positrol sprocket (which was for running KS perfs) only had one wide tooth to allow for shrinkage. One would use the wide tooth on the fixed guide side of a projector (lateral guide roller in the gate...one is fixed one is spring loaded) so in a Simplex, for instance, you would put the wide tooth outboard so if the film has shrunk the narrow tooth would accommodate.  |  IP: Logged Jock Blakley Expert Film Handler Posts: 218 From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Registered: Oct 2011 posted 11-16-2012 04:18 PM                     Perhaps using their proper name - CS-type perforations - would be better than the unofficial and somewhat confusing "fox hole" in a post designed to educate people?  |  IP: Logged Jim Cassedy Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1661 From: San Francisco, CA Registered: Dec 2006 posted 11-16-2012 05:34 PM                     quote: Jock Blakley Perhaps using their proper name - CS-type perforations - would be better than the unofficial and somewhat confusing "fox hole" in a post designed to educate people? I remember running many of these in the late 60's & early 70's, and we always referred to them as 'Fox Perfs" of "Fox Holes". It wasn't until years later after they'd become obsolete that I learned their 'real' name while working in a film lab. As for the projectors themeselves, most all of them had the "fox sprockets" (or whatever they were called) installed, so there was no chance of ruining a mag-optical print. I can only recall working two theatres that didn't have the sprocket upgrade, and there were HUGE signs all over the booths warning not play mag-optical prints.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 11-17-2012 05:14 AM                     Were special negatives needed for contact printing on cs perf stock? I've run a couple of mag/opt prints, but it was many years ago now. I also once saw o standard optical only print with cs perfs. I don't know why. what were Dubray Howell perforations used for? I believe that they were a similar shape to Kodak Standard, but with the same slightly reduced height as Bell and Howell. I don't think I've ever seen any but I can't be sure; I doubt I'd notice the difference from Kodak Standard. Posted on train, just about to arrive at Oakworth station, where 'The Railway Children' was filmed.  |  IP: Logged Robert Throop Master Film Handler Posts: 412 From: Vernon, NY USA Registered: Jun 99 posted 11-17-2012 01:26 PM                     When the magoptical print was adapted in the mid fifties Fox announced they would only release magoptical prints thus necessitating the near universal implementation of Foxhole sprockets.  |  IP: Logged Robert E. Allen Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1078 From: Checotah, Oklahoma Registered: Jul 2002 posted 11-17-2012 06:50 PM                     Thanks to Richard I see what you're talking about Paul. I remember changing the sprockets to accommodate CinemaScope prints. You obviously were not around when CinemaScope was first released.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 11-17-2012 09:33 PM                     (His above sample was on IB tech stock...) I take care of two drive-ins (Century SA and an XL in each respective booth) and both machines have "foxhole"-narrow tooth sprockets mounted on each machine. In my collection, I have a gray, Griswald "Foxhole", wet cement splicer along with a gold CIRO "guillotine", 'foxhole' tape splicer. Some of us can remember the reel shipping bands that came on FOX prints and each band had its associated color assigned to print format: Green - Flat/optical Red-CinemaScope/optical Black-CinemaScope/Mag-optical Blue-CinemaScope/optical w/"foxhole". To this date, only print that I knew that FOX released in optical w/foxhole was 'Snow White and the Three Stooges'. It was odd to see a foxhole print assigned with optical only. Four track magnetic - outboard with left, inboard was right, center was inboard and surround was the smaller stripe running within the optical track. When running optical from a mag/optical print, one had to turn the gain up a few to compensate the loss of one half of the optical track. I did run a full coat mag only (no optical backup) of "Fantasia" in the late 70's. I had RCA come do a full tune at our theatre for this presentation, for being only a one week run. -Monte  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-18-2012 09:38 AM                     A common mistake...the smaller stripe, surrounds, actually runs inboard and NOT with the optical sound track. It is the full size Center channel that runs with the optical track and hence covers one of the bilateral stripes.  |  IP: Logged Doug Thompson Film Handler Posts: 27 From: Jacksonville, Fl, USA Registered: Sep 2011 posted 11-18-2012 10:47 AM                     I've have seen only "CS" sprockets on the projectors I've used. Even the 70mm sprockets on the DP-75s, AA-IIs, and JJ I've used look to be compliant (were they to have made "CS" 70mm stock.) We ran the butt warmer "Woodstock" as a midnight show. It was the only "CS" print I have ever seen. Even though the DP-75 had its Ampex head, the Eprad processor didn't have a mag input. The center stripe didn't quite cover half of one of the dual bilateral optical stripes resulting in very noticeable distortion when the optical track had low level sound. It wasn't so bad during louder sections. Adding to the aggravation, the theatre was platter only, and we had only "KS" splicers. I got a roll of clear perforated tape from a local camera/AV store and hand made every reel join. I aligned the sprocket holes by eye, taped the two aligned layers together and cut them with a (degaussed) paper cutter. After taping the cut ends to the straight edge of the paper cutter, I lined up a piece of the perforated tape with a razor blade much like one would do in audio tape splicing. Thankfully, the print was in very good condition. I left the one lab splice in. All this for one showing.  |  IP: Logged Jack Theakston Master Film Handler Posts: 411 From: New York, USA Registered: Sep 2007 posted 11-18-2012 02:20 PM                     quote: Monte L Fullmer To this date, only print that I knew that FOX released in optical w/foxhole was 'Snow White and the Three Stooges'. It was odd to see a foxhole print assigned with optical only. There were mag prints of this title, too, so the print run was probably done all at once. I've also seen prints that WERE mag/op with CS perfs, but after the mag run were reperfed with KS perfs for subrun, anticipating that few subrun places would be set up for mag.  |  IP: Logged

All times are Central (GMT -6:00)

This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2

Printer-friendly view of this topic

Hop To: Select a Forum: Category: Operations -------------------- Digital Cinema Forum Film Handlers' Forum Large Format Forum Ground Level Feature Info, Trailer Attachments & REAL Credit Offsets Category: Community -------------------- Film-Yak Film Handlers' Movie Reviews The Afterlife Bob Maar's Joke-A-Thon Category: Classified -------------------- Equipment and Supplies Wanted/For Sale Help Wanted/Seeking Employment Category: System -------------------- Software Beta Testing Forum

The Film-Tech Forums are designed for various members related to the cinema industry to express their opinions, viewpoints and testimonials on various products, services and events based upon speculation, personal knowledge and factual information through use, therefore all views represented here allow no liability upon the publishers of this web site and the owners of said views assume no liability for any ill will resulting from these postings. The posts made here are for educational as well as entertainment purposes and as such anyone viewing this portion of the website must accept these views as statements of the author of that opinion and agrees to release the authors from any and all liability.