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Author Topic: Cue Mark Scribe Christian Appelt Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 505 From: Frankfurt, Germany Registered: Dec 2001 posted 01-13-2013 02:43 PM                     For our film archive, I need a tool to make changeover cues. We have an Arri punch which is precise, but we don't want a punched-out hole but a nice white circle which does not detract so much, especially on anamorphic prints. Philip Rigby Ltd. in the UK had a decent looking tool, but they do not answer any inquiry about pricing and availability. Premier Automatic Cue Marker Anybody out there who does not use this cue marker (or a similiar model) any more and is willing to part with it? Two would be great, one for the archive and one for the projection booth because now and then, filmmakers ask us to put permanent cue marks on their 35mm prints fresh from the lab. From an older thread on cue marks I learned about the Clint Phare cue mark scribe. Is it available from any of the US cinema service suppliers? Your advice is appreciated.  |  IP: Logged Dennis Benjamin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1445 From: Denton, MD Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-13-2013 08:23 PM                        Cardinal Sound & Motion Picture Systems has both the 35mm and the 70mm Clint Phare Cues Markers & Scribes in stock. www.cardinalsound.com 410-796-5300  |  IP: Logged Jack Theakston Master Film Handler Posts: 411 From: New York, USA Registered: Sep 2007 posted 01-14-2013 09:23 AM                     Aside from those who ask their prints to be marred, I implore you to consider a different form of cuing your prints than by permanently marring it with what is one of the most distracting forms of a change-over cue short of punching a hole in the center of the film. Sticker tabs, china marker, changeover tape, blooping tape, india ink... all removable. Once you scratch a cue into a print, it's there forever.  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 01-14-2013 09:37 AM                        quote: Jack Theakston Once you scratch a cue into a print, it's there forever. However, which is the lesser of two evils - doing it once and doing it properly in a controlled lab environment, or sending the print into circulation without cues and having a bunch of 'projectionists' who don't care about their prints as much as we do defacing 100-200 feet at the end of every reel with their own amateur efforts? When I was a full-time projectionist on the arthouse circuit in the late '90s I would see this a lot, and especially with French prints. For some reason the two big Paris labs, LTC and Eclair, did not put changeover cues on their prints. By the time I would get them (a long way from London and so near the end of the distribution chain) they would often have 5-10 sets of DIY cues on them - chinagraph slashes, hole punches, attempts to scrape the emulsion away to form a dot, you name it. And the process of applying them caused more scratching and dirt on the last 20-30 seconds or so of action, thereby making the viewing experience even worse. Agreed completely that in an ideal world, everyone would use click strips or some method of cueing their changeovers that at the very least is reversible and ideally is invisible as well. Hopefully, as the use of film declines and then only places left projecting it are run by professionals who care about what they're doing, the problem will diminish. But even now I'd be very cagey about putting a 35mm print - especially of an arthouse or re-release title, which is more likely to be run with changeovers - into distribution without any visible cues at all on it.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-14-2013 09:46 AM                        I keep going back and forth on this issue, but perhaps we can all agree that it is just stupid for a distributor to send out a "do not cut" archive print without cues. What are they thinking (or not thinking)? How is anyone supposed to run that without adding cues in some form? And wouldn't they rather have the cues added once by a professional at the lab or archive rather than by some projectionist with a hole punch or pocket knife? With "cuttable" prints, there is at least an argument to be made the cues can be removed when the print is plattered or shown on large reels. That argument goes away in the aforementioned case.  |  IP: Logged Jack Theakston Master Film Handler Posts: 411 From: New York, USA Registered: Sep 2007 posted 01-14-2013 11:56 AM                     Leo: Points all taken, and that is a realistic viewpoint on this subject. I think what worries me more (and this doesn't apply to Christian, but other projectionists) is that with scribes "out there," some projectionists get a little "scribe crazy." Is it better to have a Clint-Phare on a print rather than someone's nail scratch into the emulsion? Of course. However, a few years ago, a friend of mine who recently restored a classic film he owns the rights to had a screening in New York where a certain venue, against his instructions took it upon themselves to C-P a print that HAD lab cues printed into it, on the pretense that it was during a dark scene and "hard to see." (I also screened the print and did not have any trouble seeing this cue mark.) This really bothered the owner of the print to the point where he (rightfully) asked the venue for compensation for the damage, which after a bit of harassing, they finally paid. So I guess my point is that I don't mind an archive or a lab having the tool on-site, but that I hope the technicians and projectionists know for sure that what they're doing is OK with the print owner, and that it's applied properly.  |  IP: Logged Bernie Anderson Jr Master Film Handler Posts: 435 From: Woodbridge, New Jersey Registered: Apr 2000 posted 01-14-2013 11:13 PM                        I ran into a situation this past summer with movies in the park. The throw was 330 feet. The screen from that far looked like a postage stamp. The prints we were getting were archive prints from the studios; uncut, show prints. BUT, you couldn't see the damn cues. So I went to using clickers on the film; very tiny piece of tape on the edges of the print every 2 frame over 8 frames just a bit ahead of the changeover dots. I did this at the motor and changeover cues, but I also added a warning click 8 seconds before the motor. This worked flawlessly and didn't even have to look at the screen to do the changeover. Yes, it jumps the picture a bit, but for archive prints, you can peel them off like they were never there.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-15-2013 01:27 AM                     This is the perfect example of a situation where AUTOMATION is better. It is much better to put a tiny foil cue on the outer edge of the film to let an automation read and perform the changeover than to deal with all of this unnecessary handling of the film. Multiple tape "clickers", china grease pencil, etc all DO add wear to the film even when removed. This is why I setup my screening room with those delay brackets. My changeover cues go on the TAIL LEADER. The actual image parts of the film are never touched and it is frame-accurate no matter whether it is an uncut print or one missing a ton of frames. Changeover cues just don't matter.  |  IP: Logged Bernie Anderson Jr Master Film Handler Posts: 435 From: Woodbridge, New Jersey Registered: Apr 2000 posted 01-15-2013 06:27 AM                        Brad, is your cue detector separate from your failsafe? Are they edge cue foil detectors or something else? Its really a good idea to do it this way. Your automation uses a pulse cue and not a cue that starts a timer cam, I guess?  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 01-15-2013 07:52 AM                     This is something which used to really annoy me in the days when I was projecting. Even when the print had proper cues, in the correct places thee would often be anything up to half a dozen additional sets, in different places. I even met one projectionist many years ago who used to scribe huge crosses on prints well in advance of the proper ones, probably getting on for a second. He insisted that he had to do this as his machines were low to run up. He absolutely refused to adjust the position where he laced up to compensate, saying that he'd been trained to do it on the '8', and he wasn't going to change. I don't know how he got on with SMPTE leaders. For some reason, and I don't know why, places which run 2k reels seem to be worse at this than those which run 6k reels; if this has been one anywhere then it's generally on all reels, rather than just on part 4 or 5. No excuse for it at all.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 01-15-2013 08:21 AM                        Brad's idea is great (it does not even require a full automation system, just a way to get the foil cues to flash a lightbulb or something similar), but how many booths have the ceiling height that is necessary for something like this (with the delay rollers so that the cue can be placed after the last frame of picture)?? And the click-tab approach works well with some projectors (e.g. Century C) and poorly with others (e.g. Norelco AA-II), and is useless with prints that are already splicy.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 01-15-2013 11:53 AM                     I would say 99% of rooms can be converted. Gary Stanley has the reel on the non-operator side of the projector and feeds up and over. You can't see it in the pictures online of the Nugget theater, but they can do it that way too. Other people hang their upper feed reel from the side or behind like can be seen in Josh Jones' setup. There is always a way. Most people just don't bother. quote: Scott Norwood And the click-tab approach works well with some projectors (e.g. Century C) and poorly with others (e.g. Norelco AA-II), and is useless with prints that are already splicy. Back in the 80s before I had the means to build the delay brackets, I would put a small piece of yellow tape over the edge of the sprocket holes on the film to signify the motor cue when it hit the input roller of the projector. This method still required handling of the film to put the "cues" on just like every system (except the delay bracket), but it was just one piece of yellow tape covering the sprocket holes on one edge of the film at one frame. It was invisible to the public and I just watched the film coming off of the feed reel. As soon as I saw it come off I had about a second or so to punch that motor button as soon as it hit the first roller on the projector. I then had a few seconds to get around to the other machine, where I watched the upper loop of the incoming projector and once I saw the first frame hit there paused for a few frames and punched the changeover. (If the first shot of the incoming reel was a dark scene or the leaders had never been cut, I would put a piece of yellow tape there too.) I could get incredibly accurate changeovers this way. Maybe not literally frame-accurate (which can only be accomplished with automation), but awful close with that method. (It just took some work initially to figure out exactly how many feet/frames the motor cue had to be for that setup. Same for the precise spot on the leader if it had any missing frames.) When I was done I would remove the yellow tape from the edge of the film. It was MUCH cleaner and less wear on the print than grease pencil or multiple click strips of tape. That one roll of yellow opaque tape lasted me an awful long time too.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 01-15-2013 01:24 PM                     I tried "click tabs" recently, and the booth is just too noisy to hear them from the "incoming" projector position. Too risky for my liking. Besides, some archives will not permit tapes to be applied to their prints. When you're dealing with a variety of archives, it can get tricky trying to adhere to all of the stipulations they impose. Some archives will permit "removable" cues (open to interpretation) and some specifically limit you to grease pencil cues. Like it or not, the only universally accepted means of marking cues on archival and repertory prints seems to be with grease pencil. So, rather than keeping track of "whose print is this, and what am I allowed to do with it" I use a grease pencil for all of them.  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 01-15-2013 06:48 PM                     I have a CP marker you're welcome to, I doubt if I will ever again have a use for it. PM if interested, shipping cost only.  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 01-22-2013 04:39 PM                     Correction, after a fairly exhaustive search I can't find it. If you stole it, shame on you!  |  IP: Logged

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