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Author Topic: The demise of film... What have you heard? Jay Glaus Expert Film Handler Posts: 123 From: Pittsburgh, PA USA Registered: Dec 2010 posted 10-04-2013 01:21 PM                        As we all know the buzz around the industry is the impending death of 35mm film. While that will be a sad day for all of us, there are a few rumors and hearsay regarding 35mm film that I believe are worth going over, so we can get a better understanding of what is really going on these days. First, coming from the studios... We all know they are planning on completing the transition from film to digital in the near future. We are told that Kodak has quit making 35mm film stock and will no longer make it again due to their financial problems. Hence, when the supply of 35mm runs out, that's the official end of film. However, there are a few contradicting stories and pieces of info regarding that. Yes, Kodak is having hard times. However, I have heard that Kodak does not plan to stop making 35mm film stock. What they plan on (or so I heard), is simply not keeping a stock of 35mm film readily available. But if you were to call up and say I want to make "Film-Tech: The Movie" and need 350 prints, they would be more than happy to provide you with film, they just have to make the film stock instead of having it sitting there ready. As far as I heard, Kodak hasn't even taken 35mm stock off of their products list. They still make it and you can get it, just to order. Heck, photographers still use 35mm if they are into shooting with film, so it's not like no one uses it. I think it would be a bit of a stretch to believe the quit making it completely, would it not? If that's the case, the way I see it, it isn't when 35mm runs out, it's simply when the studios finally decide its not worth it any longer. I'm sure it might cost a little extra if they really do make it to order, but the point is it will still be available, just whether anyone wants to use it or not. And as far as the end date of film, I've heard so many different answers I can't even remember half of them. How many have you heard? Now, some of these rumors may be true or false. This is simply what I've heard through the forums here, people I know, news I've heard, and what I believe to be fairly reliable sources. If you have any info to clarify or contradict any of this and/or what you're hearing for when film bites the dust, I'm sure we all would like to hear it. I believe we've all been told a lot of different things and it would help, I think, to get a better understanding of what is really going on, if we can. Can we go another year? Is it going to be like pulling teeth to get film? I don't know, but I'm banking on the fact that maybe you do! If anyone wants to elaborate on these points that would be great. Thanks!! Jay  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-04-2013 01:36 PM                     Jay, everyone keeps misreading these stories about Kodak and 35mm film. Surely you don't think the film theaters receive is the SAME as photographers use in their 35mm cameras, do you? Surely you don't think the film a recent movie was printed on and playing in theaters is the same as the negative film stock the movie was shot on, do you? Think about it for a moment from a financial perspective. As of right now the only theaters still running film are the ones that couldn't afford to convert to digital. Logic prevails that these theaters are also not bringing in much profit, if any, over the cost of the film print. Also as less and less 35mm print stock is ordered, the cost will skyrocket higher and higher, thus making it REALLY impossible to release a film on 35mm in the future. This is a matter of money. Film is incredibly close to being dead...as an EXHIBITION format. This has nothing to do with photographers or filmmakers SHOOTING on film.  |  IP: Logged Jason Metcalfe Expert Film Handler Posts: 134 From: Austin, TX, U.S. Registered: May 2010 posted 10-04-2013 01:52 PM                     We're running Gravity on 35mm despite our two SRX-320s, if it's not a "logical" or financial reason then what is it?  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-04-2013 02:01 PM                        As one who is in the middle of postproduction on two short films (yes, films, not videos), the thing that scares me is this: as of today, the infrastructure exists to make a movie on film and distribute it on film using photochemical means (no DI). This infrastructure is rapidly shrinking and, at some point, will collapse entirely. There may be camera negative stock and print stock, but the infrastructure in the middle (negative cutting, optical printing, title creation, photochemical color timing, etc.) is on the way out, and the only way to produce a film will likely soon be via digital intermediate, which negates many of the special qualities of film as a medium. These processes require specialized knowledge and skill, and the people who are doing these jobs now are not likely to pass their crafts on to another generation. This is part of a process that has occurred over the last decade, and I do not see it stopping any time soon. That said, we have not lost anything yet, and all of the materials that one needs to make and exhibit a movie on film are readily available. B&W camera and print stock has been a niche item for years, and will likely be available for the forseeable future (although Kodak's prices go up this month). Color film is more complicated to manufacture, and, especially with print stock, I can see that there will likely be significant price increases in the future. I am still waiting for a definitive statement from a film distributor about the future availability of first-run features on 35mm. Everyone keeps quoting John Fithian's "2013" date (usually without citing the source), but that was just a prediction made by someone who does not distribute films (and who had/has a vested interest in DLP conversion). Meanwhile, I am awaiting a shipment of brand-new 16mm prints. All is not lost...yet.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-04-2013 02:20 PM                     Jason my guess would be that the image on 35mm puts out a better presentation than those Sonys. Ashamed you don't have DLPs.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-04-2013 02:29 PM                     Scott... What lab are you using... or which would you reccomend for both 16 & 35mm? Similar thing going on here... I have used colorlab in the past but they are not as competitive on Ultra 16 as other labs are and they can't scan it. It only requires similar precautions in handling as Super 16 does. Can be east or west coast. Thanks! Mark  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-04-2013 02:55 PM                        I used Magno in NYC (long out of the film business) and Alpha Cine in Seattle (just recently out of the film business) for negative processing. I am now using Foto-Kem for answer prints and 35mm blowups. So far, they have been great to work with and their prices have been very reasonable for that sort of work. Everyone loves Colorlab and their work is excellent, but their prices are through the roof.  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 10-04-2013 02:55 PM                     Is anyone actually creating movie titles (particularly credit rolls) using analog methods anymore? I figured all movie titling work has been designed and rendered digitally for at least the last decade or so. With DI, the titling scheme is just another object or set of objects to work into the time line. I will say this: "digital" doesn't automatically make a title crawl perfect or error free. I've seen plenty of credit runs with lettering rife with pixel-based jaggies. The worst example of this I ever saw was the end credits to Fantasia 2000. That was on a 15/70mm IMAX print. But the end title elements were digitally created and then rasterized into pixel based images that were cooked into the IMAX print. The problem was the lettering was rendered at far too low a resolution level and with little, if any, anti-aliasing applied to the lettering. That makes it a "digital" mistake. I've seen the opposite as well, lettering blurred too much, making it somewhat illegible (especially if the lettering is set at a tiny size).  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-04-2013 03:19 PM                        No one really does optical titles now, at least not on any kind of scale. It requires something like an Oxberry animation stand to do them properly (shooting back-lit Kodaliths), and I am told that there are no Oxberrys in the LA area. There might be one in NYC. I found a guy in Pittsburgh who has one. The other hard thing is finding print shops that can make film negatives. They are still out there, but most of them are now using computer-to-plate systems (good for them, bad for me). The problem is that most digital titles look awful. Contrast the title work in a film from the '90s with the title work in a current film, and the quality of the titles in the '90s film (with optical titles) will be way, way higher.  |  IP: Logged Connor Wilson Expert Film Handler Posts: 190 From: Sterling, VA, USA Registered: Jan 2011 posted 10-04-2013 04:04 PM                     Inception and The Dark Knight Rises appear to have optical titles in the credits. I believe so because the titles are not as steady even on the Blu-rays. The sole reason for this is easily because Nolan is a celluloid-supremacist. I seem to have noticed aliasing on the credits of particularly Sony movies, namely Moneyball and Men in Black 3. Skyfall's credits did have a tiny touch of aliasing and that was a 4K DCP being played through a 4K projector. Perhaps Sony likes to render credits at a lower resolution. Oh, Scott. Those Oxberry stands were able to put out some neat pre-CGI effects. Yes, they were a pain to use, and the kind of animation is dated today. The early Front Row Joe trailers from Cinemark were one of the better examples of Oxberry animation.  |  IP: Logged Justin Hamaker Film God Posts: 2253 From: Lakeport, CA USA Registered: Jan 2004 posted 10-04-2013 04:31 PM                        One thing I've heard, but don't really have any information to back it up, is there will be a small supply of 35mm prints for the foreseeable future because those prints are reused in smaller foreign markets. I'm sure this would only apply to major releases/tent poles. I'm curious if anyone has specific information about this. Assuming this is true, the question is whether a US cinema would be able to get 35mm prints reliably enough to keep current/recent product on screen. Given the short DVD windows, I can't see much use in getting a 35mm print 3-4 months after the initial wide release.  |  IP: Logged Jay Glaus Expert Film Handler Posts: 123 From: Pittsburgh, PA USA Registered: Dec 2010 posted 10-04-2013 07:44 PM                        A lot of good points here. Brad, I see what you mean about the negative and print stock. I realize it's different, but I thought it was one of those where if they made the one, they would make the other. Like if you went to McDonalds and they started only selling sweet tea instead of regular too. Bad analogy, but nonetheless, I didn't realize they were that different. I had originally heard that if you weren't converted by the end of this year that would be it, there would be no 35mm left for next. Now I am hearing that there should/could be film to at least start the year off with. I guess it's also the fact of how hard will that film be to get? That's the real question. If there is film but you have to go to the ends of the earth to get it, then is there really film? We converted 2 of our 4 screens at the drive-in, and are planning on converting the last two. The question is, if we can get film for spring and summer of 2014, is it worth it to wait until next fall to buy it? Maybe throw in a mini golf course instead! Who knows, you can never seem to get a real date when this will be it. Each year it seems like that will be it. When you converted to reverse scan red readers it was a little more cut and dry in my opinion. I guess it is one of those things were time will only tell.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 10-04-2013 10:31 PM                        The only official word I heard was the "OK to the end of 2013." This is not to say that this is the end; only that there will be a reassessment. Time will tell. It is amazing to me how many people heard what they wanted to hear. Louis  |  IP: Logged Peter Howard Film Handler Posts: 44 From: Forster, NSW, Australia Registered: Dec 2005 posted 10-04-2013 11:21 PM                        Down here in Australia, the conversion process is almost complete.... the last holdout amongst the 'major' exhibitors was Reading, and they are now converting at a fast rate. Whilst Reading were still predominately 35mm, getting hold of 35mm prints hasn't been a problem. With them now converting, I think it's going to get harder. We have converted 2 of our 5 screens, and are about to complete a 3rd screen. The 4th and 5th screens were (hopefully) to be completed prior to Christmas, or at the latest 1st quarter of 2014. This is somewhat a fluid date for us, as my wife is battling a rare and aggressive form of cancer. We haven't been given a firm date from anyone on the end of film. We can still source *most* titles on 35mm, with a few exceptions. What's worrying is that Fox have announced they wont be bringing anymore 35mm trailers into the country, but prints are fine. So we have trailers for Walter Mitty and Walking with Dinosaurs for this Christmas season, but apparently that's it. No other distributor has announced the same thing, though because Disney's Planes was a 2K only release (thanks to a local character being integrated into the story) we didn't get 35mm trailers for that either.... however we've got 35mm trailer for Saving Mr Banks which isn't until late January down here. What IS getting really hard is obtaining 35mm if you're not first release, which fortunately we are. Often we have to take a film on 2K if we cant squeeze it in on the break. I hate doing that, because i'm locked into screening it on the one screen and it makes programming a PITA! I guess it's still up in the air, but when it does happen I don't think exhibitors will be given much notice at all... so we're not intentionally hanging around!  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-04-2013 11:28 PM                     Jay, if I was in your shoes at a drive-in...assuming you don't run all winter, I would wait until the spring to make a decision. You've literally got 4-6 months for you to just see what happens. Regardless you should keep packing that money away as if you MUST convert by the spring because it will happen. Even if you can squeeze by with a screen or two in 35mm next summer, the bookings might be pretty unfavorable for you where making the switch to digital would make better financial sense.  |  IP: Logged

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