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Author Topic: Archive / fragile film handling - plate system/tower suitable? Dan Judge Film Handler Posts: 20 From: sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK Registered: Mar 2014 posted 04-10-2014 10:20 AM                     Hi, this is my first post and I am quite eager to have your opinions on a upgrade that is soon to take place in our small University cinema (The Void Cinema). The booth is quite cramped and currently has two 35mm projectors and a data projector (a decent panasonic 6000 lumen, 1080p offering..) in the middle. The 35mm operate with a change-over for archive films and more fragile film and from a plate/vertical tower system for polyester film. This has been the set up for sometime and we are finally getting a 4K DCP projector (Sony SRX-R510P). The issue is space. We cannot comfortably have all three so we are considering putting one of the 35mm projectors into storage. The problem lies with what we show. The main protectionist has always been told and insists, that non-polyester film stock, that is more fragile, cannot be played from the tower. As this is totally adjustable and merely 'pays off' and 'takes up' the film going into the projector through back tension I don't see why it cant be used for the same film that is loaded on the projector itself. http://www.epsomandewellhistoryexplorer.org.uk/images/TowerDataSheet.jpg As for archive footage, some prints will have to be sacrificed, as they cannot be cut or joined and rely on a change over. One of the proposed set ups would have the 4K projector on a trolley and disconnected from the whole AV system, where the original intention was to have it at the centre and everything routed through it. My question is, in your experience, should we be able to run non-polyester stock from the Westrex tower? We then can omit one 35mm projector and still have the capability to run most 35mm prints but also benefit from the joys of 4K and a more manageable workspace. [Sorry if this has been a tad long-winded]  |  IP: Logged Victor Liorentas Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 800 From: london ontario canada Registered: May 2009 posted 04-10-2014 10:41 AM                     In my opinion a platter system would be far gentler on all film. If you can fit a platter. Of course a tower can run old film but it's got to be adjusted very well and even then,a platter system beats it for gentleness.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 04-10-2014 10:48 AM                     Dan, Towers were around for about twenty years before polyester came into widespread use for normal 35 mm prints, so triacetate prints were run on them for many years. However, such prints may be getting more brittle with age and towers can be difficult to start at the best of times. If you have to use one then I'd suggest splicing fifty feet or so of polyester onto the head of the print, so that's what is running through on startup. Is there no possible way that you can make room for the three projectors?  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 04-10-2014 10:56 AM                     Also many archive prints do not allow for spliceing reels togather  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 04-10-2014 11:10 AM                        None of the major archives that screen prints in UK rep cinemas (principally the BFI, Imperial War Museum and the regional archives that have a few 35mm prints) will allow the heads and tails to be cut - it's that simple. When I worked in British cinemas I showed the odd one from a platter or tower by leaving the heads and tails attached, and dousing the picture and muting the sound as each tail and head went through, the audience first having been warned that there would be a 1-2 minute pause every 20 minutes or so. But that was usually only in a festival context and after long and tortuous negotiation. We can debate the pros and cons of this intransigence endlessly. It's a policy that dates back at least to the 1970s. I don't know where it got started, but I would guess that a projectionist at somewhere like the NFT advised the BFI that platters and towers are inherently dangerous to prints, and that policy recommendation has just stuck. I still find it astonishing that many archives are perfectly happy for their prints to be run on poorly maintained changeover installations (I have screened literally dozens of BFI prints with serious damage on reels 1, 3 and 5 or 2, 4 and 6, suggesting a major problem with one of the two projectors used to show it in a changeover configuration), but will not even contemplate allowing their use on a state-of-the-art, well designed and perfectly maintained platter/tower installation, with the prints being handled by careful professionals. As the manufacture of film stock is now winding down and we're rapidly approaching the point at which archives will not be able ot replace the release prints in their collections, however much money can be thrown at the problem, the restrictions they impose on screenings are likely to increase. If you want to be able to show archive prints, my gut feeling is that you really need to keep the two 35mm projectors.  |  IP: Logged Manny Knowles "What are these things and WHY are they BLUE???" Posts: 4247 From: Bloomington, IN, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 04-10-2014 11:28 AM                     Could you keep both film projectors and let the 4K projector replace the data projector? Your main projectionist is misinformed about platters not being safe for acetate film. As pointed out (above) platters were around for a few decades before polyester base arrived on the scene. But it is true that you won't be allowed to use archival prints... ..or, quite possibly, you won't be able to borrow any film prints at all... ...because, in a sense, every film print is now archival. Everyone's getting picky about who to lend their prints to. It isn't just the "archives."  |  IP: Logged Steve Moore Expert Film Handler Posts: 211 From: Leeds, West Yorks, UK Registered: Apr 2008 posted 04-10-2014 12:00 PM                     Just looked at the photo of your projection room on the university website, a nice tidy install, but yes I see one machine will have to go. Are those westar projectors too? I have run a few old 60s prints on my tower quite recently here in Leeds, with no apparent problems, at least for a 1 off run. Though those towers are certainly not the most gentle machines with film, and less so if the film is longer than 2 hours (gravity is not your friend with longer films) I don't see it would be a problem running an occasional film on one machine; as you say it just depends if you are allowed to take the head and foot off the print. (I have received several in the past where I was told NOT to remove leaders and run on C/O only to find them already unattached when the print arrived.) Unfortunately it might not be an issue much longer as more and more things we receive from BFI are DCP only now anyway.  |  IP: Logged Dan Judge Film Handler Posts: 20 From: sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK Registered: Mar 2014 posted 04-11-2014 05:25 AM                     Thanks so much for your opinions, I was wondering how active these forums would be. We are trying our best to fit everything in but ultimately it seems like it will be very cramped and not ideal. We have though about putting the 35mms on rails, the 4k on a trolley but manoeuvring then all around would be a bit of a circus act. It would not be ideal but that is the goal (any sugggestions?). Leo - If, and im sure it can, the tower can be configured and gently tweaked during the presentation, im sure dousing the footer-header will be acceptable. Our bread and butter is the film course, very little is commercial (if any for 35mm!). Manny - One of the intentions was to get the NEC 4K laser projector and just use that for everything (a tad expensive at £80k+) but with the Sony we feel power point presentations would not be great use of such a projector so we want to limit its use to Films only. Plus, its a width issue really. The 4K projector still needs to squeeze in-between the two 35mms. Steve - They are Westrex too (as far as i can tell). Im guessing the settings could be adjusted midway through it the tensions are getting too much on the high side. But realistically, most archive prints are 80-100 mins anyway.  |  IP: Logged Steve Moore Expert Film Handler Posts: 211 From: Leeds, West Yorks, UK Registered: Apr 2008 posted 04-11-2014 09:32 AM                     With the tower, on older films I have tended to keep the pay off just enough to stop the film drooping, and lower slightly the number as the payoff gets less full; and the reverse for the take up; as in every half an hour or so add around 10 or 15 into the take up, so that it does not wind on too sloppy and then start to slip on the spool. I have certainly run some 50s and 60 prints that have been far less than perfect (sticky surface) off mine, but just keep an eye and keep adjusting. Even modern brand new prints get damaged with continual daily playing, compared to a platter or small spool.I've never seen one of your model projector actually ever running (seen several in states of disrepair)  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 04-11-2014 10:56 AM                     Handled properly there is absolutely no reason you can't run acetate prints on a Westrex tower. I did for many years The 5035 tower is adjustable for both pay-off and take-up tension. Contrary to popular belief you shouldn't need to adjust tensions once it's running settled. I've got a pdf of the manual if that's any help.  |  IP: Logged Steve Moore Expert Film Handler Posts: 211 From: Leeds, West Yorks, UK Registered: Apr 2008 posted 04-11-2014 11:18 AM                     Pete, I agree, and never normally adjusted the tension, only on older stuff which had a tendency to curl up at the edges or had been badly stored. Some of the films have run might not have been stored in the most perfect archive conditions!  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 04-11-2014 11:28 AM                     Just done the same as Steve, Westrex 7000s! Those must be the only working ones left now. They can be a bit brutal on startup with a tower, but if set up right then it's no problem. It's also worth having a 'floating hub' spool on the take up.  |  IP: Logged Dan Judge Film Handler Posts: 20 From: sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK Registered: Mar 2014 posted 04-11-2014 05:22 PM                     I'd love a copy of the manual Pete. So the westrex 7000s are quite old? Apparently, they used to belong to Elton John. We are having a meeting with the course leader to discuss our options on Monday. If we can run most prints on one that would be great as we'd have a spare if one ever broke down and was unrepairable. I'll post some before and after pictures at some point too. Thanks again.  |  IP: Logged Steve Moore Expert Film Handler Posts: 211 From: Leeds, West Yorks, UK Registered: Apr 2008 posted 04-12-2014 08:41 AM                     I would like to come see those running at some stage. (thank's Pete, never knew the model number). I think we have part(s) of one in a back room at Skipton.  |  IP: Logged Michael Putlack Expert Film Handler Posts: 187 From: Fort Collins, Colorado Registered: Sep 2011 posted 04-12-2014 10:55 PM                        They are making lifts now so that you can put a digital projector on the back wall and just bring it down for maintenance and bulb changes. Maybe this is worth looking into?  |  IP: Logged

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