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Author Topic: Service Tech Opinions on 70mm Norelco Ad Steve Matz Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 672 From: Billings, Montana, USA Registered: Sep 2003 posted 05-07-2014 09:45 PM                     Having a little back and forth exchange on the 16mm Film-talk concerning how many projections a Print can endure before it's not presentable in a Theater Venue any longer. Obviously a number of Factors play into this.(i.e. Competent Projectionist,Equipment,Gate/Pad Pressure,Cleanliness of Transport/and Print,etc. I'm not sure which Model Norelco this ad would be referring to at the Pantages back then; Possibly a DP70. What I would like to hear from Service Techs up here that have worked on these Norelco's is this a Realistic situation in a general 70mm Booth. Since Norelco was promoting the sale of this model Projector; I'm sure everything was treated with kid gloves concerning Print Handling, Projector Setup,Maintainence,etc. I IMHO feel that this is an exception to the Rule. I believe the Projector/s supplied to the Pantages for this Showing weren't your off the assembly line Projector that would be going to General Movie Houses. I think these were probably meticulously hand assembled units that were indexed and blueprinted beyond anything the average Theater would receive. After all our reputation is at stake here also.I haven't heard that much from Projectionists on these machines as to how gentle they are on Film,reliability,etc. Your Feedback on this Ad would be most informative and appreciated, Thanks!....S.M.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 05-07-2014 11:06 PM                     758 passes from a print is actually very easy to do on a LOT of different equipment. For example the GCC Northpark put more passes on 70mm prints than that with Century JJs and never had a mark on them.  |  IP: Logged Steve Matz Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 672 From: Billings, Montana, USA Registered: Sep 2003 posted 05-07-2014 11:41 PM                     Found this Neat Video of A DP70 used in a Home Venue. I'm still not sure if this would have been the Model used back then at the PANTAGES for the "SPARTACUS" Showing. The video covers both 35mm and the conversion to 70mm. I've heard both sides of the coin regarding NORELCO Projectors. I know like any other make your going to have your PROs and Cons. Since I have never ran one I can't critize or Defend its Engineering and Reliability. It looks impressive in the Video... (about 9+ minutes long) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY00JZhfR9M  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 05-08-2014 12:04 AM                        That's Ben Wales in the video, isn't it? When Kodak launched triacetate stock in 1948, they published an SMPTE Journal article, which included the results of research in which they tried to establish the typical life expectancy of a release print in a normal, suburban theater situation. The problem with pre-triacetate safety stocks (diacetate, butyrate and propionate, mainly) was that they were a lot more fragile and expensive than nitrate. These tests were designed to convince studios and theater chains that the new safety stock was as good as nitrate in terms of tensile strength and durability. My memory is hazy and I don't have a copy of the article immediately to hand (nor a subscription to look at the PDF online), but if I remember correctly, a nitrate print was considered to be capable of withstanding 500-600 projections in what were then considered to be normal projection booth and handling conditions. But of course a prestige theater in downtown Hollywood is not exactly normal booth and film handling conditions: it's going to have better maintained equipment and probably better trained personnel than a second-run suburban house. It's not really the model of projector that's the biggest determination of print life, but rather the quality of maintenance and film handling in the booth, and how a print is used. A print that plays three bookings a month is probably going to wear out a lot more quickly than one which stays in the same booth, playing four times a day for many months.  |  IP: Logged Claude S. Ayakawa Film God Posts: 2738 From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 05-08-2014 12:19 AM                        I saw SPATACUS at the Pantages in Hollywood back in early 1961 from way in the back of a deeply sloped stadium seat theatre. The movie was great but the viewing experience in this theatre from where we sat was not a good way to see films. The Pantages as I remember was a very huge house. -Claude  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 05-08-2014 12:56 AM                     When "Titanic" opened up in 1997, I ran a print through a P35GPS Christie where when that one print left our complex in July of 1998, it never obtain a scratch during the 7 month run on that print .. and my splices had never any hinge issues or signs of weakening. We didn't have FG, but had Kelmars, mounted on our AW3R platters to keep the print clean as possible.  |  IP: Logged Louis Bornwasser Film God Posts: 4441 From: prospect ky usa Registered: Mar 2005 posted 05-08-2014 05:42 AM                        35mm Smokey and the Bandit played 5x a day for 14 months. It was not a new print when we got it. Color faded and the sprocket holes were longer but very watchable at the end.Century SA and Autowind 2. Louis  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 05-08-2014 05:42 AM                     If this was early '60s (61?) it would have been DP-70s. I think the last ones were built in 1967 and there was a couple of years or so overlap in production between those and the first DP-75s.  |  IP: Logged Rick Raskin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1100 From: Manassas Virginia Registered: Jan 2003 posted 05-08-2014 06:28 AM                     A projectionist at Colonial Williamsburg once told me they got 2000 runs on a 70mm print of "Story of a Patriot" before discarding it. That was on JJs. I heard they recently ordered 6 new 70mm prints. So if true, 70 will be alive there for some time to come.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-08-2014 06:49 AM                     The DP70 was certainly one of the most gentle projectors ever made. The film had no aggressive turns. The tension could be maintained better than others (continuously adjustable gate tension and the clutches were better than most). It also used large sprockets which distributed any tension over more perforations than most of the others. That said, I've never had to replace a print and at the Uptown in DC, we ran Century JJs and our typical run would be many hundreds of shows...400-500 was not unusual. We wore out Teccon mag heads there from so many runs. Of the machines I personally ran, I would put the Simplex 35/70 as the harshest of them due to its gate design (or lack there of). Anyone that knows that projector knows it truly was just the PR1014 with wider sprockets and spacers to adapt the standard 35mm parts to a 70mm system. It is caught between 65 and 70mm as the sprockets and gate/trap are not 70mm wide as such it has piss-poor lateral stability and the intermittent shoes rub across tracks 2 and 5 on the mag tracks. This will leave marks/wear on those two tracks only. In fact, I've seen, in some theatres, where they were worn OFF. One had to space the shoe off the sprocket, like a pad roller to avoid aggressive wear. Compare that to the Norelco where the intermittent used an actual pad roller and the sprocket had a significant wrap around it to distribute the tension. The Century JJ is like walking in a mine field...if you know where the mines are, you can navigate around them. I always found that the JJ did better on 35mm than the SA too. I don't have experience with the Ballantyne but the Walt Disney Company did/does. They used them pretty much exclusively and they definitely would get more than 700 passes on a print. They were/are used on their attractions at their theme parks (though many/most have now been replaced by digital).  |  IP: Logged Richard Fowler Film God Posts: 2392 From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA Registered: Jun 2001 posted 05-08-2014 08:36 AM                     We averaged 3500+ passes of 35mm film at Planet Ocean Museum in Miami. Ballantyne Pro with VKF sprockets and a film cabinet with compressed air film cleaning. We could do more but the image color was a change issue.  |  IP: Logged Bill Gabel Film God Posts: 3873 From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA Registered: Jan 2002 posted 05-08-2014 01:02 PM                     The Pantages theatre engagement of "Spartacus" was a Roadshow run. Which ran one or two shows a day and the first 70MM engagement for the theatre. During that time frame the theatre was a two man Union booth. Those Norelco's were installed in 1960 and lasted till 1977 when the theatre closed as a movie theatre and was reopened for Broadway touring shows. They were removed during that time and during the mid 1990's we reinstalled 4 Norelcos back into the theatre. I worked for Pacific Theatres during that time. On the seating for this engagement, Kubrick had the theatre reduce the seating capacity by curtaining off parts of the auditorium on the far sides and in the rear balcony. The theatre went from 2700 seats to 1512 seats for this engagement.  |  IP: Logged Steve Matz Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 672 From: Billings, Montana, USA Registered: Sep 2003 posted 05-08-2014 01:19 PM                     Very Interesting responses; I guess my skepticism comes from back when all of our indoor theaters in the 50's and 60's were using E7 Simplex's that had been installed as far back as 1941 at the FOX Theater. The 2 projectionists that I knew well enough to know they were Competent Old School Licensed Electricians and could fix anything in their Booths use to tell me on any long run feature that went 12 weeks or longer; they usually asked for a replacement Print after around 7 or 8 weeks. I know these Projectors were well maintained as I remember being in 2 of these theater's Booths and they were immaculate. The Projectors,Lamphouses,Rectifiers,etc. still looking like they were brand-new. So if you know your Projectionist is more than competent and keeps a clean projector/equipment,print,etc., is conscious about using minimal Gate/pad pressure short of Flutter,etc. Why would these prints have to be replaced in roughly a 2 month period with an average number of 6 showings a day/night. I know from talking to other old school Projectionists that ran numerous brands of Projectors back then always said Simplex(super,E7,XL straight gate) were rougher on film than other Brands. Even the NORELCO AD said the average life of a 35mm Print was 200 or so Projections. If Simplex's were that rough on Film why were there so many out there and the company surviving while others folded in the 50's. I know going to a curved gate improved the later XL's but I hear more Cons than Pros on them being Rougher on Film than any of the Other Mfgers Equipment...  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 05-08-2014 02:09 PM                       Simplex were and are not any rougher on film than other projectors. There are a lot of XL's out there grossly out of adjustment. Film tension way too tight, etc. The projectionists you mention, good as they were did not usually get a lot of experience on other brands being rooted in one booth or smallish geographical area so what they were citing were opinions gathered from talking to other operators. Anecdotal at best. A lot of operators loved the Motiograph because it was an intricate device, but proof of the pudding...  |  IP: Logged Bill Gabel Film God Posts: 3873 From: Technicolor / Postworks NY, USA Registered: Jan 2002 posted 05-08-2014 02:10 PM                     What years are you talking about for those 12 week runs and what size city and was it a single screen?  |  IP: Logged

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