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Author Topic: FP20 Sound Steve McAndrew Film Handler Posts: 95 From: North Yorkshire, UK Registered: May 2015 posted 07-06-2016 02:37 PM                     Hi I have a fairly old Philips FP20 which still has the original sound head with an exciter lamp. Am i correct in thinking that the output from this would be mono? Also how does this type of head cope with cyan tracks? Thanks Steve  |  IP: Logged Mitchell Dvoskin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1869 From: West Milford, NJ, USA Registered: Jan 2001 posted 07-06-2016 02:45 PM                     > I have a fairly old Philips FP20 which still has the original sound head with an exciter lamp. Am i correct in thinking that the output from this would be mono? No, you would not be correct to assume mono. The photo cell may be mono, it may have been upgraded to analog stereo. >Also how does this type of head cope with cyan tracks? Poorly. It is not the sound head design, it is that fact that exciter bulbs, in addition to putting out visible white light, also put out infrared light that passes straight though the cyan track as if it is not there, causing low volume and high background noise.  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 07-06-2016 02:49 PM                       It handles cyan the same as any other exciter equipped soundhead. Badly and very low output. The combination of low wattage exciter lamps and a rather inefficient light path yield a fairly noisy output. There are or were laser light kits, Jaxlight kits and BACP made a reader specifically for this soundhead. Most likely mono output. The lasers have all sorts of issues covered here in other threads. The Jaxlight was a useful device but not good in the app due to the very low light. The BACP reader replaces the lens, exciter and solar cell with all new components. Around $700 but worth it IMHO. Never mind I made them, trust me!  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 07-06-2016 02:51 PM                       It handles cyan the same as any other exciter equipped soundhead. Badly and very low output. The combination of low wattage exciter lamps and a rather inefficient light path yield a fairly noisy output. There are or were laser light kits, Jaxlight kits and BACP made a reader specifically for this soundhead. Most likely mono output. The lasers have all sorts of issues covered here in other threads. The Jaxlight was a useful device but not good in the app due to the very low light. The BACP reader replaces the lens, exciter and solar cell with all new components. Around $700 but worth it IMHO. Never mind I made them, trust me!  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-06-2016 10:27 PM                     Least we forget that Kinoton also offered an RSSD upgrade kit that worked with the FP20 (throw out the old soundhead, bolt in the new one.  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 07-07-2016 03:29 PM                       Did not mean to leave Kinoton out but the price would be breathtaking and does the new Kinoton even still sell this?  |  IP: Logged Fredrik Sandstrom Film Handler Posts: 63 From: Turku, Varsinais-Suomi, FINLAND Registered: Mar 2014 posted 07-08-2016 02:04 AM                     No, the Kinoton reader is not sold new, and they're hard to find second hand. I was just finally able to acquire a pair after looking on and off for a couple of years. I'm actually in the process of installing them right now on a pair of 1960s FP20s. It's not quite as straightforward as "bolt in the new one", as I needed to move the projector's start and stop buttons a little bit down, and saw out a small piece of the reader's aluminum frame in order for it not to collide with the lens holder. (We have single lens holders, no turret.) And oh, I foresee another small obstacle on the second projector that I have not started working on yet; that one is older and differs in some details. The film stripper on the lower sprocket in angled differently, and I fear the film will not clear it as it exits the reader. I might need an extra roller in the film path there, or solve it by some other means.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-08-2016 06:47 AM                     Depending on the vintage and options, yes, the start/stop buttons do have to move (this is not true on all vintages). The ones I've installed did not require any modifications to RSSD itself and the power supply board fit inside the column (I believe I mounted it on the front (nearest the screen). As for KDS selling them new...if they do, I'm sure it would just be from whatever was in stock at the close of prior entity. They don't have manufacturing capability though I believe they can have some items made as a subcontract. I highly doubt that they would make the RSSD new as the demand would be near zero. However, if you really like a particular projector (already installed), it shouldn't too hard to find an FP30, 40, 50, or PK60 and take it from there. The thing is pretty modular. Unplug the cables, remove the weight(s) that form the flywheel and it is just three screws from coming out. The power supply also normally comes out/goes in easily.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-10-2016 06:46 PM                     quote: Steve Guttag Least we forget that Kinoton also offered an RSSD upgrade kit that worked with the FP20 (throw out the old soundhead, bolt in the new one. Since owning a PK-60D I have become very unimpressed with Kinoton's lightly built sound reproducers (and the PK-60D projector overall). There are important aspects of it that just plain suck. The best part of it is the drive motor and inverter. The Kinoton reproducer LED's are not really field replaceable unless you get the LED assembly from Kinoton... if you still can and it will be at the usual ridiculous price. I WAS ABLE TO with a bit of difficulty, replace both of the LED's in my PK-60. But it was a real pain in the ass. Yes it tracks like a champ and all but so does a Cat 700 and the old Phillips analog reproducer. Honestly, I'm totally unimpressed, actually disappointed, with the PK-60D over all, and when I can find it a new home I am going to replace it with an FP-56... Seriously, go with Sam's BACP system if you make any changes at all. The older Phillips analog stuff is better built. Sam's stuff is Its light years ahead of what Kinoton offers and its also at a realistic price point. It is also much easier to service. Anyone want a good deal on a PK-60D? Please come get it! Mark  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 07-11-2016 04:45 AM                     Stevie, the RSSD from the FP30D can be made to fit with little effort, and are fairly easily obtained second hand here in the UK. Mark, I'm surprised at you re: Kinoton LEDs. They are field replaceable, no more awkward than a BACP or a Cat700.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-11-2016 08:27 AM                     Mark...for a skilled person like yourself, changing the LEDs on the Kinoton LED bracket is really not a chore. I did it without incident as they aged. Honestly, I think it would have taken longer to change the whole LED bracket and string the wires to the terminal block. The solder coverings are like rubber...slide them back to reveal the joint. Suck the solder blob up with a bulb or solder sucker (just three joints. Then take the LED bracket to a suitable work area to swap the LED(s) and reverse the procedure. No big deal, really. I think it typically took me about 15-20 minutes. And when you are done, as you say, it tracks PERFECTLY. It is fine to pick on the projector and make dubious claims about the older stuff being better but you have no empirical data to back those statements up. The images are steady and the sound tracks as well as any other system out there. I'm not telling you that you need to like it...we all have our likes and dislikes but to make absurd bold statements like you just made that are clearly false is wrong. The PK60D does what it is supposed to do...show movies without damaging film and exceeding SMPTE (or BKSTS) specs in every category and out perform its contemporaries by just about every measurable metric. Cost of ownership was also at the bottom end of the scale with just the skates/runners being the chief wearable. And when you changed them, you got essentially a whole new projection system and they were not priced crazy either.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-11-2016 03:22 PM                     The whole problem is all the plastic in them and I get the idea of the equal friction coefficient and all. Not sure how true that holds up though, probably more so with older acetate stuff. I've got 60 year old FP-56's with used runners in them that are still in excellent condition. Had to replace the coupler in my PK-60D and the outboard bearing. Fortunately this was not an out of pocket expense as I was able to acquire a new coupling through a trade. On this supposedly high caliber of projector the LED assembly should have been socketed, would have been very easy to do. The rest of it is pretty good though, especially the motor drive. Just some weak spots that really shouldn't be so weak. I can also use the inverter out of my PK-60D to drive the FP-56! It also has a three phase motor. Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-11-2016 05:08 PM                     I would have preferred socketed LEDs too. But that is not the precision way. Only Component Engineering really did that one right. BACP used a socketed LED head but not the LED itself. Again, if you ever do attempt at LED changes, you'll realize it is really NO BIG DEAL. As to the "plastic" runners/skates. I've never had a problem with them. They had three levels of hardness you could choose from but I liked the Delrins best. I personally never had a problem with the intermittent coupler but I have heard of those that did, particularly when they switched to delrin for it. If you got the intermittent hot, I hear it work out fast. Again, I didn't have that problem but can believe it. The FP20 and FP30 mechanicals we had that go back decades never had to have one change out.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 07-12-2016 09:08 PM                     quote: Steve Guttag I would have preferred socketed LEDs too. But that is not the precision way. Actually Kelmar did it right with sockets and managed using off the shelf TO-5 transistor sockets that were slightly modified. Kelmar even had a small indention for the tab of the LED to align into, so you got it right on the first try. That was done by EDM. I didn't care for the CE thnig with the flex board though. Sam's was even better IMHO because it was all pre-aligned. All you had to do at best was touch up the height of the LED mount or pickup. Often nothing was required. Kinoton is supposed to be high caliber stuff. And indeed, some parts of it are, but not all of it. Oh, and on the runners... Christie had composite curved runners too that I used just about everywhere the last four or five years of film. They never wore out. Not sure what they were made out of... Mark  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 07-12-2016 10:17 PM                     Yeah...Kelmar did have the sockets but I HATED them...they were floating in there and he had to shave a bit off each to get them to fit...I'll Take CEs over all others on the LED head department...not only were the LEDs socketed, the adjustment one could get with them was also the best.  |  IP: Logged

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