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Author
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Topic: What's the science about gray screens?
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-03-2019 01:42 PM
Quite a few A/V companies who sell to the consumer market, many of seemingly reputable names, offering screen material that is not pure white but some level of gray; the claims for such screens (usually at price points above standard white screen surfaces) are that purportedly the gray surface "enhances" black levels. I find this to run in the face of logic.
If a projector has a crapola black level spec, projecting on a surface that is darker than white, sure, while it may darken the lousy black level, but it will also do that in the same amount to the quality of the white light reflected back to the eye,...dulling it equally to the amount of gray in the screen.
Another explanation was that if the projector light source is too bright, a gray screen will prevent or reduce "blooming." That also sounds like bad science. If the projector light source is selected correctly to produce the correct reference lumen level, then white should be the only color (actually NON-color) that should be used. Blooming just means the projector is not calibrated correctly and the screen's function isn't to correct that. I can't see any argument for using the screen to correct the failings in the projector.
And while this just seems like logic and a bit intuitive to me, but I haven't actually ever used a gray screen, so I guess my fall-back is, if using a gray screen surface had ANY real advantages, then you would see them in at least some commercial movie theatres. Am I missing something here or is this gray screen material offered to consumers just a scam?
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-03-2019 07:40 PM
quote: Steve Guttag Grey screens only make sense in a high-light environment.
So if you are going to run with the lights on, you get a grey screen to lower the ambient reflectivity
Hmmm, call me old school, but you shouldn't be watching movies with the lights on.
And you said it, Jack -- there is PLENTY of BS out there. I may have mentioned before in another post, I have an otherwise intelligent friend and brilliant musician who had the most esoteric sound system in his living rm and no doubt it sounded pretty spectacular, tube amps and LP turntable -- lots of really expensive high-end gear, purchased from those audio 'salons' that you need to make an appointment just to have the privilege of walking thru the door. But just spending lots of money wasn't enough. Somewhere along the line he latched on to this idea that audio cables carrying line-level signals and ESPECIALLY phono cartridge signals, they had to be wrapped in...wait for it...magazine paper. And not just any old magazine paper, but the shiny, clay-coated paper -- nothing else wold do. And he went even further and decided he should do that with EVERY cable -- AC power cables, amp to speaker cables...everything. His living room look like something from a really bad science fiction B movie. And of course he insisted he could hear the difference between when the wires were wrapped and when they were not. Amazing things the mind can make one believe.
He also had a 9ft Steinway in his music room. There too, he got it in his head that if he placed these solid brass cylinders, each about the size of a drinking glass, directly on the piano's sounding board, one for each of the rosettes, it would magically and dramatically improve the sound. Of course I was totally mouth-wide-open skeptical and asked how that could possibly be. He yammered away for 20 minutes and it was all gibberish and all I said was, "Are you sure you weren't told these theories on like April Fools Day or something?" At lease the magazine paper didn't cost him anything (other than his dignity), but these brass cylinders cost effin $75 each. Damn scam artists.
But, long ago I learned to let people have whatever it is that makes them feel good...what good does it do to break their bubble? Well, it could save them some money, but money isn't everything (get to my age and that becomes very obvious). But I couldn't resist quietly posing the question, "But don't you think if putting 6 brass cylinders inside the piano on the sounding board would improve the sound of a Steinway Concert Grand Piano, that Steinway would have brass cylinders ALREADY built into it?! I didn't want to be contrary but I thought, there is something to say about stopping him from buying anymore of these silly and expensive brass do-nothings. But alas, he was already convinced and nothing anyone could say would convince him otherwise.
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Randy Stankey
Film God
Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-03-2019 09:17 PM
quote: Frank Angel He also had a 9ft Steinway in his music room. There too, he got it in his head that if he placed these solid brass cylinders, each about the size of a drinking glass, directly on the piano's sounding board, one for each of the rosettes, it would magically and dramatically improve the sound.
I agree that wrapping cables in paper is comically silly but I'm inclined to speculate that placing brass cylinders (essentially weights) on the sound board of a concert grand piano COULD improve the sound in certain cases.
The Steinway piano was designed to be played in a large concert hall. It has to be able to project sound to the back of the auditorium. It does that very well.
However, in a small venue like somebody's living room, a Steinway might produce "too much" sound for the room to be heard well. Placing heavy weights in strategic locations on the sound board MIGHT deaden the piano's resonance just enough, without affecting the overall sound quality too much.
I'm not saying that this is true. I'm only speculating that there might be something to it.
The only way to tell, for sure, would be to perform some scientific tests with a real-time analyzer or some such equipment.
In the mean time, it's not hurting the piano to put those weights inside there and it makes the guy feel good about playing the piano...most good musicians rely on emotional state of mind as much as skill and experience. If it improves the guy's state of mind enough to make him play the piano better then more power to him.
I once worked with an orchestra conductor who claimed he had "perfect pitch" and could hear the difference between A=440 and A=441. As you know, that's impossible without a basis of comparison as a starting point. Yet, he swore, up and down, that he could even though nobody I know had ever seen him do it.
We always used to just smile and say, "Okay, Meistro."
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 07-08-2019 01:50 AM
Compared to many of the audiophile bullshit out there, like $1500 dollar UTP cables that make your IP packets "sound" better and audio cables wrapped in panda droppings, the science behind grey screens, or low gain screens as they're also called, is real.
It's primarily used in the home cinema environment, I've never seen a grey screen in a commercial cinema.
Grey screens do not only absorb a certain amount of ambient light, they also absorb a certain amount of the light leaked from your projector. If you have sufficient power to compensate the light you're losing by overcoming the grey, you may not have improved your contrast in an absolute sense, but you did improve your black levels.
Most commercial setups don't have such a light budget to spare or aren't willing to push their lamps to the extremes to get there.
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Frank Angel
Film God
Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 07-08-2019 06:38 AM
Thing is, in that Ambient Light Rejecting screen demo, seems that the light rejecting aspect of the screen is much more a function of what looks to be a lenticular surface rather than the gray screen pigment. Ever project on a glass beaded screen? Now THAT kind of a screen would accomplish rejecting room light. If the concern is preserving contrast in a less-than-ideal lighted room (i.e., with lights on), then the solution isn't a gray screen, it's a directional one like a beaded screen or the lenticular screen in the video. We spoke about lenticular screens before -- while they are not common nowadays because of the manufacturing expense, they were ubiquitous in the 50s and 60s as they were part of the Fox spec for showing CinemaScope -- curved, lenticular and silvered -- all to utilize every lumen of projected light. . I would posit that a screen with directional characteristics is much more of an appropriate way to deal with room light (if you MUST watch a movie with the lights on -- damn consumers), than tinting the screen gray. This screen manufacturer evidently has brought back the lenticular concept...and at a hefty price too.
I am still not convinced that projecting on a gray surface will improve black levels either. You project on a surface that has a negative gain (the gray tint), and yes, the black level of the projected image is brought down because of it, but so is the overall brightness of entire image. Then to compensate for that, you increase the brightness of the image (assuming you have the headroom), but that just brings the black level back up right along with it -- zero net gain. Your black level hasn't really improved at all.
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