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Author Topic: Lawrence of Arabia on DVD
Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 08-13-2001 09:08 AM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I was watching Lawrence again last night and was again in awe of how crystal clear the picture was, so I decided to check something out that had bothered me about the film. When Lawrence is crossing the desert, supposedly with fifty of Fiasel's men, the number of men seemed to be less than that and change from scene to scene. Pausing the DVD and counting, I could count 36 camels in one shot of the group resting and forty something in another. The DVD is sharp enough that in the resting shot it is possible to determine which of the dots on the plain are camels and which are probably blankets or men because of the necks showing on the camels.

I point this out for those who dismiss the threat of good video. One problem I do have, though, is when I don't diffuse the sharpness a little the steps artifact. As Evans points out, video needs to get away from using lines and more to a random or semi-random grain structure to avoid such problems.

Is anyone else bothered that the railroad line in the first segment of the picture appears to be a 2 or 3 foot gauge and the later trains are more standard gauge? My other picky points on this film are 1. Sharif removing his headpiece and throwing it on the ground in disgust. That would be an offense to Allah, not to Lawrence. 2. The processing marks that show up in the sky as light vertical moving bands. I remember being surprised that this wasn't fixed in the otherwise amazing restoration.



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Evans A Criswell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1579
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Mar 2000


 - posted 08-13-2001 09:50 AM      Profile for Evans A Criswell   Author's Homepage   Email Evans A Criswell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I point this out for those who dismiss the threat of good video. One problem I do have, though, is when I don't diffuse the sharpness a little the steps artifact. As Evans points out, video needs to get away from using lines and more to a random or semi-random grain structure to avoid such problems.


It is best with DVD to find the correct sharpness setting so that no false high frequency information is being added (or more accurately, no boost is given to the high frequencies). This varies from set to set. On my set, the correct setting is to have the sharpness all the way down, believe it or not. On newer Sonys, the correct setting is approximately one third or one fourth of the way up. If your set has a way to turn off SVM (Scanning Velocity Modulation), turn it off, because it causes an effect similar to having the sharpness run up too high.

With DVD, using S-Video or Component video cables to get the highest quality picture possible, there is no reason to run the sharpness up higher than the "flat response" setting since doing so will often cause the artifacts from the MPEG2 compression to become noticeable.

With NTSC video, the "steps" artifacts are on any video source, analog or digital, due to the discrete nature of the signal in the vertical direction (480 visible scan lines). Analog video is a strange animal. It's continuous horizontally and discrete vertically. It wouldn't matter if you had a video format and a receiver that could both display in infinite number of "pixels" of information on each scan line. The limitation of 480 scan lines is a problem with NTSC.

Anyway, until some sort of HDTV version of DVD comes out, DVD's as they are now are the best home video movies you can get.

I just wish they'd made the anamorphic encoding always use all 480 scan lines, regardless of the aspect ratio, and required the players/sets to cope with figuring out the amount of unsqueeze/squeeze to apply. Doing it this way would have allowed scope movies to be encoded with 720 by 480 resolution rather than 720 by 357. It seems that at home, the flat ratio is always the one that is going to look better (with more image detail).

It may take several years, but I do think home video will eventually hurt movie theatres more than they do now. As larger, brighter, less expensive screens become available, more people will buy them and stay home more. Sound systems are already there, just waiting for the screens and picture quality to catch up.

------------------
Evans A Criswell
Huntsville-Decatur Movie Theatre Information Site


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Mitchell Cope
Master Film Handler

Posts: 256
From: Overland Park, KS, United States
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-13-2001 01:01 PM      Profile for Mitchell Cope   Email Mitchell Cope   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Evans said,
quote:
It may take several years, but I do think home video will eventually hurt movie theatres more than they do now. As larger, brighter, less expensive screens become available, more people will buy them and stay home more.

As far as I know, I don't think "Apocalypse Now Redux" is going to play in a theater in my area (Kansas City). Being down about this I thought, that's the plan. The short theater run is just the advertisement for the upcoming DVD release. The studio would probably lose money to have it shown in more theaters across the country. Now I know everybody is thinking, "Well, duh". The time is here that video is taking the revenue generating handoff. "The horror. The horror."

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000


 - posted 08-13-2001 02:14 PM      Profile for John Pytlak   Author's Homepage   Email John Pytlak   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mitchell Cope said: "As far as I know, I don't think "Apocalypse Now Redux" is going to play in a theater in my area (Kansas City). Being down about this I thought, that's the plan. The short theater run is just the advertisement for the upcoming DVD release. The studio would probably lose money to have it shown in more theaters across the country."

Sad, but probably true.

By all accounts, the 35mm dye transfer prints really look great on a big screen. But I was originally wowed by the 70mm presentation of "Apocalypse Now" at the Century City Plitt theatre in LA in 1979. Think what a new 70mm Vision Premier print of "Apocalypse Now Redux" would look like on a huge, well-lit screen.

Nice and convenient as it is, a DVD on a home theatre screen won't even come close to the experience.

------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion


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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 08-13-2001 06:21 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've seen HDTV and it is damn impressive. It looked as smooth (or as near as smooth) as a computer monitor. Much more detail, and what seemed like less flicker (do they run higher than 60hz?). Maybe I just saw a progressive scan display. If that's the case, then interlacing should be illegal.

Watching DVD movies on my Mac is pretty interesting. I get an 85Hz refresh rate instead of a wimpy 60 like TVs offer. 60Hz should be illegal and punishable by death. It runs at a true 24 frames per second instead of using the 3-4 pulldown BS. This is evident when you see camera pans. Unfortunately sitting at the computer is not the most comfortable setting to watch a movie nor does it offer the best sound.

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Steve Scott
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1300
From: Minneapolis, MN
Registered: Sep 2000


 - posted 08-15-2001 12:13 AM      Profile for Steve Scott   Email Steve Scott   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've noticed that Lawrence and other 70mm DVDs look really great on my PC monitor, too. Hitchcock's Vertigo is amazingly less digital looking, even when I'm running it full screen.

I've also noticed that a 16mm movie like Clerks can bee less irritatingly grainy to watch on my PC. (I can also get audio clips off of them too! )

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-15-2001 02:09 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Guys,
Progressive scam 1080 lines is the ultimate destination for HDTV in about 20 years or so. Things have been set up in the change over so that it automatically progresses to that end. I've had an HDTV now for several years. Limited broadcasts at first(a few times a year) but now quite regular, mostly on PBS and local KSL.
Lawrence does look great played back on a DTV with line doubler. David Lean might have been pleased with this transfer. It looks even better on my computer with progressive scam. HDTV broadcasts however look better in 1080i than they do in 720p for what ever reason. 1080i seems to offer less digital artifacts than 720p does, and if you are rally into artifacts of any type then I really reccommend that you go out and buy a DTV tonight!
Mark @ GTS


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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-19-2001 01:53 AM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've been able to watch some movies in their entirety on my computer monitor (a ViewSonic P815 21" monitor). Progressive scan definitely provides a major advantage. And so does the much sharper resolution of large computer monitors. But, as Joe pointed out, the sound is just not as good on a computer setup. I even have a Dolby Digital speaker set up on my rig, but if the sound mix is a major part of the movie (like "Saving Private Ryan" for example), then I have to fire it up on my regular home theater system. The computer just does not have the same kind of punch to it, even if it offers a multichannel audio approach.

Progressive scan DVD players are becoming more common. I replaced my old glitched out Sony DVD player with a Pioneer DV-C603 model which features progressive scan output capability. I don't have a TV that does progressive scan yet though. One of these days I'll get the money together for a new widescreen digital TV.

1080p and 720p should the real standards for HDTV. But I have a bad feeling 1080i and even 720i will be more common for a long time to come, at least on terrestrial over-the-air HD broadcasts. Digital video storage formats and even TV set quality will leave those 1080 and 720 standards far behind in the years to come.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-19-2001 07:08 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bobby,
1080p is the ultimate destination for hdtv standards, however it will take a long time to get there. The technology is still under development for that system. They can barely make color cameras that can do 1080i right now! To do 1080p will ultimately involve studio and computer upgrades. The present HDTV xmitters will be able to handle it with only small mods. 720p is one of the standrds and ABC is using that system. It actually does not look any better, nor much worse than 1080i does and offers about the same end result. Geez, when you get to 1080 lines, being in interlace scan does not really matter much as the lines are basically invisible, unless of course with those eyes you are watching a foot from the screen. Some might think so.

Jerry, regarding the marks in the sky in Lawrence go they came oh so close to completely loosing the camera neg for that film, due mostly to studio assholes engauging in studio politics. Something like two more weeks and the film would no longer exist! As it was the stuff was comming apart while they were making the seps or printing interpositive or whatever they had to do with the neg to bring it back. It is quite amazing that it survived at all and that it looks as good as it does. It is a great tribute to Bob Harris's abilities and I'm sure that restoring that film was the high point in his life's work. I suppose it could have been digitally redone but it was not that big of deal. There were also other minor visible problems as well.
Mark @ GTS


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Jerry Chase
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1068
From: Margate, FL, USA
Registered: Nov 2000


 - posted 08-19-2001 08:39 PM      Profile for Jerry Chase   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark, from what I understand if the interlacing is lost, then 3-D alt frame possibilities might be lost as well. I'm not sure I understand what all the fuss is about with interlacing at higher res.. Could someone provide more info?

Also, I've heard rumors of the "near death" of Lawrence, but I don't have the full story. Any sources that you recommend?


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Tao Yue
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 209
From: Princeton, NJ
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-20-2001 09:10 AM      Profile for Tao Yue   Author's Homepage   Email Tao Yue   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps it was a good thing Lawrence was not digitally restored. Scanning technology wasn't as good in 1989 as it is today. Since the negatives were about to die, a digital restoration would have left us with limited-resolution prints of Lawrence forever.

Not to imply that RAH, Katz, and company are digital-phobic. They've used digital technology to pick up where chemical/optical restoration left off. Two examples I can think of right away are the famous Grace Kelly/Jimmy Stewart kiss scene in Rear Window and the substantial chunks of My Fair Lady that had deteriorated too much to be saved chemically.

However, IMHO, digital restoration should be left as a last resort. I saw the restoration of A Hard Day's Night and was very annoyed by the pixellation. The contrast also left something to be desired. That negative is pretty much gone, so unfortunately the digital version is the one we're stuck with.

------------------
Tao Yue
MIT '04: Course VI-2, Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Projectionist, MIT Lecture Series Committee


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 08-20-2001 09:40 AM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Tao,
A Hard Day's night was in B&W. What the heck happened to the neg? Was it in a fire or just improperly stored?
Mark @ GTS

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Tao Yue
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 209
From: Princeton, NJ
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-21-2001 09:10 AM      Profile for Tao Yue   Author's Homepage   Email Tao Yue   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The ON for A Hard Day's Night still exists, but it's in pretty bad shape due to improper storage. Also, the first and last reels of the ON are gone because it was loaned out to make clips, and only part of the film was returned. Those reels had to be restored from other available elements. The remaining reels of the ON had hundreds of prints made from them, as with many old films.

I suppose it'll be possible in a hundred years to go back and restore it again. So I should have heeded the maxim, "never say never." We'll be stuck with the digital version for a long time, but perhaps not forever if things are good. But for color films restored digitally, we may indeed be stuck with the digital restoration forever.

------------------
Tao Yue
MIT '04: Course VI-2, Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Projectionist, MIT Lecture Series Committee


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Greg Anderson
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 766
From: Ogden Valley, Utah
Registered: Nov 1999


 - posted 08-21-2001 10:18 PM      Profile for Greg Anderson   Author's Homepage   Email Greg Anderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a wonderful book called Lawrence of Arabia The 30th Anniversary Pictorial History by L. Robert Morris and Lawrence Raskin with a foreward by Martin Scorsese. It's from Anchor Books Doubleday, copyright 1992. It gives a brief history of the real T.E. Lawrence and then the making of the movie... including the restoration. I consider this book a must for any die-hard fans of the film.

The end of the chapter about the reconstruction and restoration mentions a screening of the finished "work print" in Los Angeles on May 6, 1988. David Lean attended along with Steven Spielberg and some studio officials. According to the book...
---------------------------
After the screening, Harris set about making final changes and ordering new material to replace dupes or torn negative. He then put in a lab order that a 65mm 'preservation interpositive' be printed off the reassembled original negative. This 'interpositive' -- a low-contrast, fine-grain, positive color print -- is used to create a small number of duplicate negatives. It is these which are used to produce the positive 'prints' which are distributed to cinemas. This strategy prevents wear and tear on the original negative.

"As they began to produce the interpositive," Harris recalled with horror, "all of the splices started opening, the perforations began failing, and the negative surface started cracking up: it was starting to fall apart. We were down to the final weeks of life of the negative: it was starting to fall apart. The negative started self-destructing.

"There were very few rolls of negative that successfully produced an interpositive the first time through.

"One of the reasons that the original negative was in such bad shape, was that in the 60s, 70s, and even the early 80s the duping stocks were so bad that they had used the original negative to make theatrical prints. The negative had been run through a printer over 220 times."

Harris was forced to decide -- in each case -- whether to go to the separations, an alternate shot, or a trim piece, to replace the damaged material. What should have taken another week, took four more agonizing months.

Finally, in September 1988, the restored 'Director's Cut' of Lawrence of Arabia effectively existed.

Sir David Lean's lost masterpiece was ready to return to the cinema.
(copied from page 208)

---------------------

Earlier in the chapter there are details about Columbia's idiotic, legal wrangling which almost prevented this movie from ever being restored. Robert Harris is to be applauded... loudly. If I were Steven Spielberg I would take out my personal checkbook and purchase all of Columbia's control of this movie. Then I'd give it to someone who truly cares about it and could preserve this movie for generations to come.

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Tao Yue
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 209
From: Princeton, NJ
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 08-22-2001 08:32 AM      Profile for Tao Yue   Author's Homepage   Email Tao Yue   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That book sounds great -- and 75 pages of color pictures! Unfortunately, it's out of print, and the Boston Public Library's two copies are both missing. People must've wanted it so badly they paid the fine for losing a book just to get it. Maybe I'll be lucky with Amazon's used-book service.

I think Columbia isn't alone among the studios in treating its classic films poorly. The reports I read about RAH's interest in The Alamo indicate that MGM/UA destroyed a pristine print of the film just to telecine it. It's enough to make you cry. See:
http://www.dallasobserver.com/issues/2001-08-09/stuff.html

This is one reason why I do not support the current trend in copyright law of taking rights away from consumers and giving them to the copyright owner. Should the law really protect the right of a studio to willfully or negligently destroy a great work of art? Well, it does currently.

------------------
Tao Yue
MIT '04: Course VI-2, Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
Projectionist, MIT Lecture Series Committee

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