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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Community   » The Afterlife   » Let the HD DVD format wars begin... (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Let the HD DVD format wars begin...
Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 10-03-2004 11:59 AM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So Fox joins with MGM in committing to Sony's BD format (though that does not preclude them from also releasing on HD-DVD). Have there been any announcements for studios that have picked HD-DVD? I wish we could have gotten down to one format though--this reminds me too much of the Beta vs. VHS wars with their mutually incompatible technologies. I know I can't afford to buy two playback machines nor maintain a split-format library of HD discs, which means I'll sit this one out until one format wins. I predict that'll probably happen sometime in my 60's.

Fox Said to Back Blu-Ray DVD

quote:
U.S. studio reportedly signs onto Sony-backed standard for next-generation systems.
October 3, 2004: 8:40 AM EDT

TOKYO (Reuters) - U.S. film studio Twentieth Century Fox Film Corp. will support the Blu-ray standard for next-generation optical discs, a Japanese business daily reported Sunday, advancing the cause of Sony Corp. and its partners in a war over the next generation of DVDs.

Backers of two rival DVD formats, Blu-ray and HD DVD, are wooing studios to issue movies in their format, in an echo of the VHS-Beta videotape battle of 20 years ago.

The rival formats, both of which use blue lasers to read discs, offer much greater capacity than existing DVDs. This would enable discs to hold higher-definition and longer recordings.

Blu-ray backers say their discs will hold 25 gigabytes of data, five times the capacity of current DVDs.

The Nihon Keizai Shimbun said Twentieth Century Fox, the distributor of "Titanic," "Star Wars" and other blockbuster films, would join the Blu-ray Disc Association, which would be launched on Monday.

Obtaining the backing of Hollywood studios and their large film libraries will be key to winning the race to produce the next generation of DVDs.

No one at Sony (SNE: Research, Estimates), Twentieth Centry Fox or its parent, News Corp Ltd. (NWS: Research, Estimates), was available for comment.

The support of Twentieth Century Fox would be another step forward for the Blu-ray camp, whose case was buttressed last month when a group of companies led by Sony bought film studio Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Inc. (MGM: Research, Estimates) for $2.85 billion plus debt.

The rival HD DVD camp groups Toshiba Corp., Sanyo Electric Co. and NEC Corp.

Blu-ray's backers include Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd., the maker of Panasonic products, and Sharp Corp.

The blue laser light used for both technologies has a shorter wavelength than the red light used in current DVD recorders, so can read and store data at much higher densities.

Twentieth Century Fox was the sixth-largest player in the North American movie market in 2003 with a 8.8 percent market share, Nihon Keizai said, citing figures from the Hollywood Reporter.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2004 Reuters All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99


 - posted 10-03-2004 09:18 PM      Profile for Mark Gulbrandsen   Email Mark Gulbrandsen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So how soon is this stuff going to hit the store shelves?

Mark

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-04-2004 12:13 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Blu-Ray ssupposedly has much more storage capacity than HD-DVD. I want the one with the larger capacity to win. Unfortunately Blu-Ray was invented by Sony which means on paper it looks great and even onscreen, but there will be some HUGE flaw like it compresses the hell out of red and only red (like the DV format, also thought up by Sony) or some such nonsense.

I also hope they don't waste their time trying to come up with anti-piracy stuff, as it WILL be cracked and that is guaranteed. The best way to thwart piracy is to give us the goods at reasonable prices. I still can't believe FOX thinks people want to pirate their HDTV broadcast signals that are free anyway. Some companies are just run by retards with unwiped asses, I guess.

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 10-04-2004 11:18 AM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As best as I can tell, first-quarter of 2005 for BD, sometime later in 2005 for HD-DVD. Anti-piracy stuff is indeed a continuing issue. BD recorders are already out in Japan. And apparently the new PS3 game console will use BD.

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Thomas Procyk
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1842
From: Royal Palm Beach, FL, USA
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 10-04-2004 12:23 PM      Profile for Thomas Procyk   Email Thomas Procyk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does this also mean that physically, the data will be squeezed tigheter onto the same sized disc? So even a small defect or scratch would cause a larger flaw than on current DVDs.

Why not just come out with Blu-Ray Laserdiscs? They could probably hold 2500 GB [Cool]

=TMP=

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Ron Lacheur
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 650
From: British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Feb 2002


 - posted 10-04-2004 08:49 PM      Profile for Ron Lacheur   Email Ron Lacheur   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm against BlueRay currently because it isn't apparently backwards compatible with the standard dvd format.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-04-2004 09:11 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The lack of BluRay having backward compatibility with standard DVD doesn't really bother me. I already have a standard 5-disc DVD player. I still thinking about getting an X-Box, which would be yet another DVD capable machine. Then there's my desktop computer and the laptop PC I'm looking to buy.

Don't get me wrong, it might be nice for BluRay to be compatible with the existing DVD format. However, I would rather BluRay to succeed than HD-DVD. The Time Warner-Toshiba camp has chosen a bitrate as puny as 15MB per second for HD-DVD content. BluRay runs much closer to the D-VHS standard. BluRay also has a lot more storage potential. The dual layer BluRay discs will be standard for HD content. Sony is also talking about improving the format to four layers, with that happening first for computer data content.

I'm not sure who was actually first to do it, but BluRay was the first next-generation disc format I read about that made both Dolby Digital and DTS playback mandatory standards as part of the format. HD-DVD has since announced the same thing.

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Mark J. Marshall
Film God

Posts: 3188
From: New Castle, DE, USA
Registered: Aug 2002


 - posted 10-04-2004 11:10 PM      Profile for Mark J. Marshall     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The dual layer BluRay discs will be standard for HD content. Sony is also talking about improving the format to four layers, with that happening first for computer data content.
Try EIGHT. [Big Grin] [thumbsup]

I'm excited about the new formats. I hope they make some significant improvements to the functionality of the format over DVD too. For example, layer changes should be mandatory aboslutely seamless; menus should be capable of seamless looping, and more randomization effects; etc... It just seems like there's a lot of stuff they could have done with DVDs but they just never had anyone with enough imagination to make sure the proper capabilities were built into the standard.

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-05-2004 12:25 AM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Bobby, do you mean 15Mb per second? Wouldn't 15 megabytes per second would be plenty for HD?

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Jesse Skeen
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1517
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: Aug 2000


 - posted 10-05-2004 02:02 PM      Profile for Jesse Skeen   Email Jesse Skeen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'd like to see menus on discs just disappear, or at least only come up when you want to see a scene index or watch the 'extras'. I'm sick of DVDs that start out like a video game before you can have it start the movie!

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Ron Lacheur
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 650
From: British Columbia, Canada
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 - posted 10-05-2004 08:07 PM      Profile for Ron Lacheur   Email Ron Lacheur   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To add to Jesse's wish list, NO MORE FOOL SCREEN!!!

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001


 - posted 10-05-2004 10:53 PM      Profile for Bobby Henderson   Email Bobby Henderson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Bobby, do you mean 15Mb per second? Wouldn't 15 megabytes per second would be plenty for HD?
Dammit. Sorry, about the typo. Yeah, that's 15Mb not "15MB".

To answer your question, no I don't think 15Mb is enough for HD disc based content. The peak rate for regular DVD is 10Mb per second. I've seen lots of standard DVDs have pretty high average bitrates and peaks over the 9Mb and close to 10Mb range. Depending on the whether 720p or 1080i is used, HD-DVD would be working with 3 to 7 times the number of pixels. 15Mb just doesn't sound like enough for that.

Blu-Ray has much higher bitrate and a lot more forward looking potential. The Time-Warner/Toshiba camp seems to be going about the "we're only going to offer just what's barely good enough" strategy.

IMHO, the Sony camp has the right idea with pursuing a more demanding spec for disc-based HD video storage and playback. The D-VHS format already boasts a pretty impressive bandwidth of roughly 30 megabits per second. It seems really crazy for the HD-DVD people to pursue a standard of only half that rate, just a few megabits above the peak limit for standard DVD.

The only sensible argument I can see for choosing such a low bitrate for HD content would be perhaps for ease of disc manufacturing and durability issues with rental discs. It is true many renters out there are filthy pigs who treat discs like trash.

quote: Jesse Skeen
I'd like to see menus on discs just disappear, or at least only come up when you want to see a scene index or watch the 'extras'.
I agree with this for the most part. The intro menus for some big ticket film can be kind of cool. However, you should be able to instantly override them (as well as those damned FBI logos and crap) by hitting the play button. If I load a disc into the player and hit "play" before it finishes loading, it should just start playing the movie immediately -just like what happens when you play a CD.

There should be some kind of ability for home users to set their players to display menus or override them automatically. The menus are really irritating if you're watching a movie that spans across 2 DVDs (such as the LOTR extended edition series). I'd really like it if a player could automatically jump from playing disc 1 to disc 2 without any menu interruptions inbetween. What would be even better is if the player loaded up the first minute or two of video on the second disc into a memory buffer in RAM or on a hard disc, that way the disc switch would be seamless.

To add to this further, it would also be nice if you could set a next generation HD disc player to bypass menus and set default audio options for the formats or languages you want to use. This kind of thing would certainly be nice for DTS fans. The movie would just play in DTS automatically without you having to go to some menu to select it.

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000


 - posted 10-06-2004 01:13 AM      Profile for Paul Mayer   Author's Homepage   Email Paul Mayer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
IIRC the HD-DVD people have a pilot disc pressing line running in Tsukuba Science City. They claim to be able to convert the line between pressing DVDs and HD-DVDs in just a couple of minutes. Maybe that is what drove the lower bit rate for them?

[ 10-08-2004, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Paul Mayer ]

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Joe Redifer
You need a beating today

Posts: 12859
From: Denver, Colorado
Registered: May 99


 - posted 10-06-2004 07:32 PM      Profile for Joe Redifer   Author's Homepage   Email Joe Redifer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Word has it now that due to the studios being so god damned paranoid over piracy, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players will not be able to output a HD signal over component. HDMI only. So if your TV does not have HDMI you are screwed. No HD for you. Someone needs to take a crowbar to the crotches of these studio execs.

I can't wait until someone finds a cure for stupidity. Why do studios only hire stupid people, anyway?

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Michael Schaffer
"Where is the
Boardwalk Hotel?"

Posts: 4143
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002


 - posted 10-06-2004 08:21 PM      Profile for Michael Schaffer   Author's Homepage   Email Michael Schaffer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Joe Redifer
Word has it now that due to the studios being so god damned paranoid over piracy, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players will not be able to output a HD signal over component. HDMI only. So if your TV does not have HDMI you are screwed. No HD for you.
Similarly, they have also come up with a standard called HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) which blocks your DVI output unless the unit on the other end also supports HDCP.
Which our Barco digital projectors don't...
Apparently this is a feature which was only recently introduced. I didn't know that last week when I hooked up a DVD player with upconverting capability to the Barco to feed it with 720p. We had done that many times with older HD receivers which don't have HDCP, there had never been any problems.
I almost went crazy because I couldn't figure out what the problem was until I read the horrible news in the manual.
Fortunately, there is one nice player which upconverts and is not HDCP "protected" and luckily, this is made in CA just an hour north of us. So I raced to the manufacturer and got one of the miracle machines, and it worked great then.
Stuff like that can really spoil your day. What right do they have to implement features like this? We didn't plan to copy any protected stuff, we completely legally played a DVD produced by a local radio station.

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