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Topic: 4K and 3D coming to the homes soon

Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008

posted 06-02-2009 10:59 PM

HDMI, the standard that is most used for digital audio/visual home interconnections, will have specifications 1.4 ready in about 1 month.

It will include:

- 3D over HDMI. It defines common 3D formats and resolutions.
- 4K x 2K resolution support. It allows HDMI devices to support HD resolutions above 1080p.
-Expanded support for color spaces. Compatible with sYCC601, Adobe RGB and AdobeYCC601.
-Automotive connection system. Designed for in-vehicle HD content distribution.
-New micro connector. Small, 19-pin HDMI connector to support 1080p resolution on portable devices.

It will also certify additional cables for HDMI with Ethernet, which support will also be included in the 1.4 specs.

If we add this to Red (red.com) upcoming (end of summer) Scarlet video camera ($3700, 3K-bayer, RAW recording) and Red-Ray 4K DVD player ($1000, end of the year) ... well, now all that is needed is a 1.4 HDMI compliant 4K TV panel to watch our kid's birthday party in almost-4K at home.

And yes, it will come. The only question is when. And no, it will not be very expensive eventually. Current manufacturing puts net cost price level at around $700 for a 46" 4K panel, so they can sell for anything above that making profit. Of course, the first few 4K TV's will be expensive etc, but currently you can get Philips 56" 2560x1080 TV for around 3500€ or around $1000 for a 30" 2560x1600 monitor (Dell, apple, NEC, HP).

The only 4K monitors in the market today are geared for professional applications and retail for around for ~$39,000 for the cheapest 56" one I know of.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-02-2009 11:20 PM

HDMI 1.4 only begins to lay the ground work of what will take at least a couple years or more to deliver.

There's a lot of corporate interest in pushing digital 3D, but full color 3D won't arrive without a clearly defined standard. Right now no such standard exists. There's a lot of competing technology ideas, but none have been specifically chosen by the Blu-ray Disc Association. Without such an endorsement there will be no Blu-ray movie discs with full color 3D on them.

It's also going to take a LONG time for the general public to replace their current TV sets, Blu-ray players and possibly other components like audio video receivers just to do full color 3D. If an actual inventory was done of existing HDTV sets I would bet most equipment would be compliant with HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 specifications with 1.3 compliant hardware a small yet growing minority.

A major portion of existing HDTV sets in use have no HDMI connections at all. That's a big reason why no Blu-ray movies up to this point have applied the Image Constraint Token on any titles (ICT limits component output to 480p in order to help plug the "analog hole").

Some electronics manufacturers are trying to claim their products are 3D ready, but that's just a load of crap. They're lying to make a sale. Until the actual 3D standard for Blu-ray gets ratified, NOTHING is 3D ready.

4K? That's an even longer way out. I don't see a 4K consumer video format for movies arriving any sooner than 7 to 10 years.

The biggest problem with 4K is content. Very few movies are output in 4K. What use is a new video format supporting 4K if there are very few movies that support it? In order for 4K to become popular in home theater a major paradigm shift would have to occur in movie studios where they abandon the cost saving standard of doing nearly everything in 2K. There is no evidence of that happening at this point.

2560 X 1600 computer monitors are 2.5K, not 4K. Such monitors are only useful for graphics people, engineers or any other computer user that needs as high a resolution display as possible. Those 30" monitors aren't selling very well at all either. Only a handful of companies make them, and Apple's 30" unit remains high priced at $1799. You almost never see such monitors stocked in retail stores. Usually the 1920 X 1200 or 1920 X 1080 computer monitors in 22" - 27" form factors are about as big as commonly available computer monitors will get.

Home theater will stay peaked at "1080p" for a long time.

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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008

posted 06-02-2009 11:32 PM

While I generally agree, Bobby, specially with the part of the blu-ray for content being the main driving force (other than brave satellite or cable broadcasters which, at least in the US, I don't think will happen) and, thus, the biggest obstacle right now for 3D or 4K in the homes, having HDMI set a standard is a VERY strong first step that, I feel, will drive the industry forward quite a bit.

quote: Bobby Henderson
Only a handful of companies make them

That's because there is not a lot of demand. But still:

-HP LP3065 - $1160
http://www.buy.com/prod/hp-lp3065-30-wqxga-2560-x-1600-dvi-x-3-black-silver-widescreen-lcd/q/loc/101/203403527.html

-Dell UltraSharp 3007WFP-HC 30" $1100
-DoubleSight Displays DS-305W 30" $1162
-NEC MD304MC 30" Monitor $3000
-Samsung SyncMaster 305T 30" $1300
-Apple M9179LL/A 30" $1700
-EIZO FlexScan MX MX300W- 4MP - 29.8" $6240
-EIZO ColorEdge CG301W-BK 30" $4400
-LaCie 730 30" $3490
-Gateway XHD3000 30" $1055

LG W3000H, etc, etc. Plus the widescreen 56" Philips TV mentioned.

http://www.nextag.com/lcd-monitor-2560-x-1600/products-html

http://review.zdnet.com/filter/max-resolution/2560-x-1600?categoryId=3174&filter=500149_9585525

Bestbuy carries some (their site seems to be down at the moment, so links not working for me).

And right now there is no "content" in 2.5K nor a domestic method to capture video at that resolution. In other words, no need for such monitors except for graphics artists. But as soon as cameras >HD resolution start to become more common, the demand for resolutions over 2K (be 2.5K, 3K up to 4K) will begin to get answered by manufacturers willing to outsell the competition.

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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 06-03-2009 06:04 AM

I can definitely see 3D being on the home horizon in 5 years or less if the fad doesn't disappear by then. I'm sure the studios would like the ability to sell the 3D version for a few bucks more to make some more profit on the additional cost to produce in 3D.

4k on the other hand I don't see happening for quite a while. First of all, what's the point? How many people have big enough TVs that they sit close enough to for 4k to be noticeably better than 1080p? I doubt it's enough to allow the studios to make profit selling 4k versions.

Second, it's only been recently that people have been upgrading in large numbers to HDTV. It's going to be a hard sell to get them to upgrade again in the near future.

Finally, I think that TV resolution will be mostly driven by TV product and not movies. Satellite and cable companies are having enought trouble trying to deliver HD channels. They are in no hurry to deliver something that requires even higher bandwitdth. From a production standpoint, we are at least 7 years into the availability of HDTV (probably more like 10) and still there are channels that are HD channels that don't produce all content in HD.

Realistically, it will be another 3-5 years before all programming on all channels is available in CURRENT HD formats. Then, finally after all that prodcution equipment has been purchased, I don't see any rush for the content providers to upgrade again.

10-15 years from now if the world economy still exists I can see 4k maybe starting to make some inroads for videophiles (and wannabe videophiles).

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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008

posted 06-03-2009 08:48 AM

I also agree with you and your timeframes, Lyle.

quote: Lyle Romer
4k on the other hand I don't see happening for quite a while. First of all, what's the point?

Obviously there is no need for 4K at home. Basically, 2K is what it's at home right now, and that was deemed "enough" even for professional cinema applications (i.e. most movies today are 2K).

So the point of 4K at home is .... to sell more hardware. You know how it goes. Once a manufacturer puts out a "premium" TV that is 4K only $500 more than the competitor's 2K ... well, consumers like larger numbers.

Just like there is no point on 240hz or 480hz TV's (I mean, the more the better, but no real need for them), and yet they are now coming out with 600hz, just to outsell competitors on a larger (meaningless) number.

Same with 2.5K, 3K or 4K. The more the better, of course, as long as the price premium is small, but no need for them. At least until you own a 4K home camera ...

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-03-2009 08:50 AM

quote: Julio Roberto
While I generally agree, Bobby, specially with the part of the blu-ray for content being the main driving force (other than brave satellite or cable broadcasters which, at least in the US, I don't think will happen) and, thus, the biggest obstacle right now for 3D or 4K in the homes, having HDMI set a standard is a VERY strong first step that, I feel, will drive the industry forward quite a bit.

For at least the next few years, Blu-ray will be the only consumer video format where viewing full color 3D HD movie content will be practical at all. The bit constraints of cable, satellite and OTA broadcast are too severe to support dual HD video streams. They're already operating at levels where banding, macro-blocking and general fuzziness are common issues. Those imagery problems won't allow full color 3D to look very good.

Most cable and satellite service providers already know far too well the big thing their customers want is more HD channels. So even if a satellite or cable company had the bandwidth available, they know they would do better by providing two different HD channels rather than throw double the bandwidth into one channel just for the sake of 3D.

Long term, the Internet could deliver full color 3D HD video on demand, but only when the Internet is able to support the tremendous bit rates required to do the job well at all. Movie downloading via the Internet won't be a credible threat to 2D movies on Blu-ray until sustained connection speeds of 20 million bits per second or greater are common. Right now the vast majority of Americans are connecting at well under 3 million bits per second. Full color 3D will simply double the connection speed demands.

quote: Julio Roberto
But as soon as cameras >HD resolution start to become more common, the demand for resolutions over 2K (be 2.5K, 3K up to 4K) will begin to get answered by manufacturers willing to outsell the competition.

That doesn't make any sense. The only thing that will drive 2560 X 1600 as a video format is if a variety of video cameras natively support that resolution and Hollywood studios author movie/TV content in that resolution. None of that is happening. Both consumer and professional broadcast video cameras are going no higher than 1080p. Before anyone tries to say it, the cameras from Red aren't geared for broadcast use.

Currently very few video cameras even support native 1980 X 1080 progressive resolution. Most consumer HD camcorders are stuck at 720p, HDV 1440 X 1080 or maybe 1080i. Perhaps once Blu-ray burners and HD video editing software becomes more accessible to consumers then there may be a surge in native 1080p video camera development. But even if every consumer HD camcorder was 1080p that would do nothing to help the 2560 X 1600 format.

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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008

posted 06-04-2009 05:26 PM

We can always get this 43" widescreen, 2880x900 resolution, *CINERAMA* NEC CRV-43 monitor:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/04/nec-crv43-43-inches-of-curve-on-sale-july/

If you have $7000 lying around and can wait til next month, of course.

And for the 3D, you could just get this LG monitor, capable of full HD 3D images using passive (simple, inexpensive) polarized glasses:

http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news-18182-Full+HD+3D+Monitor+Panel+with+Enhanced+Brightness+From+LG%2C+With+Video.html

[Razz]

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 06-04-2009 06:23 PM

Again, where is the CONTENT (the actual 3D movies) to support any of that hardware?

No movies are authored in 2880 X 900 resolution. The only thing that monitor will do is "zoom" 1920 X 1080 content. Nothing more.

Every "3D" movie released so far on Blu-ray as been the crummy anaglyphic type. Every movie planned for Blu-ray release with any sort of 3D support will also use the anaglyphic method. So the polarized 3D capability in that LG monitor is all but worthless.

The only full color 3D-related development happening on any sort of near term basis is full color 3D capability possibly being included in the video game based on James Cameron's upcoming 3D movie Avatar. The system is rumored to use LCD-based shutter glasses that are USB connected to a XBox360 or Playstation 3 gaming console.

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Julio Roberto
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 938
From: Madrid, Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2008

posted 06-04-2009 06:32 PM

Content will come, Bobby, it will come.

Funny thing is that, with LCD panels being just as bright in 2D as they are in 3D (the light is already polarized), one could eventually, a few years down the road, watch UP at home at proper brightness levels instead of a dark image like in movie theatres ...

[Roll Eyes]

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