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Author Topic: Blu- Ray picture quality - Old & New Claude S. Ayakawa Film God Posts: 2738 From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 12-04-2009 08:37 PM                        Next April will mark exactly one year since I bought a Blu-Ray player and started to buy and watch them on a standard television set. Although the set was analogue, I was able to see a slightly better picture quality. After realizing I was not getting the full potential from my BD player and discs, I bought a 1080p HDTV about a month later and the picture quality was stunning on Blu-Ray and even from DVDs. While almost all new releases are fantastic, some older BDs are better than others. A few look great and have a picture quality like a new release or even better. A few however were disappointing when a studio had never bothered to create a better master for the Blu-Ray release. While new releases have excellent picture and sound quality , I have been amazed with the excellent picture quality of films that has been released many years ago such as THE DEEP, STARMAN and St ELMO'S FIRE. All of these movies were released By SONY and I consider them one of the best studios with their BDs. I was however not pleased with WOLF after I watched a rented BD from Blockbuster last night. It started out great with a fantastic picture that was nice, sharp and clear and every bit what a Blu-Ray should look like but for some reason, the image fell apart and appeared like I was watching the movie on DVD about an forty five minutes into the movie. The recently released special edition of STARGATE was great but HOME ALONE was not. Many older films are nice and sharp but the color had that faded look such as THE SEACHERS. THE WIZARD OF OZ Was superb and so was GONE WITH THE WIND except for the warm skin tone. -Claude  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-05-2009 10:44 AM                     With certain older, catalog titles you'll find the biggest problem being the actual film negatives and the way they were shot. In the case of Wolf I wonder if various kinds of diffusion filters or other methods were used to soften the image during principal photography. Some camera lenses shoot a softer looking image than others. There's also the issue of aging actors demanding the scene be shot soft so their "crow's feet" and other facial wrinkles don't show up so obviously. Finally, Wolf was shot in the cropped 1.85:1 format. It's not using as much film negative as a full frame 2.39:1 'scope movie. That alone can amplify grain and any softness in the image. Still, Blu-ray has the bigger problem that many catalog titles are sourced from old, soft telecine masters rather than sourced from brand new, far more precise film scans.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-05-2009 11:24 AM                     Humm, I didn't find the color faded looking on The Searchers but then my disk is an HD-DVD copy and that format IS so much superior to Blu Ray . There were some color issues but I thought it actually looked great overall.... much sharper than the Blu Ray North By Northwest is. Bobby is no doubt correct about the masters they use to generate many of them.  |  IP: Logged Claude S. Ayakawa Film God Posts: 2738 From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 12-05-2009 01:04 PM                        I may be wrong and probably is but I just cannot imagine a Blu-Ray disc would be replicated from a sub standard element such as a soft telecine master. As far as WOLF is concerned, I can see no reason why the beginning of the movie would be gorgeous and fall apart at about the forty minute point. It just does not make any sense. I am very surprised as a avid photographer as yourself, you were not able to notice the off color shift in THE SEARCHERS, Mark. I have been and still is an active professional photographer and have worked with professional still color negative film since the mid sixties. I have worked with negatives that were once pristine when they were processed and printed and tried to print them twenty years later and saw the same color shift I saw on my BD copy of the SEARCHERS. Faded color with a strong magenta (Pink) overcast. The best way to compare the color is to watch the making of THE SEARCHERS documentary on the disc and you will see the tremendous difference in the color quality. The color clips from the film on the documentary is gorgeous. -Claude  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-05-2009 02:20 PM                     I have the Blu-ray version of The Searchers. I think the color quality and pretty much everything else about its imagery is very good. The movie isn't as razor sharp as modern releases on Blu-ray, and there is a good amount of visible grain. Still, I think The Searchers on Blu-ray looks great for a 50+ year old movie and better than any other way I've seen it on home video. Claude, are you saying the entire movie has shifted color or is there a particular scene or scenes where it is visibly shifting? What chapters (or specific time points) are affected? quote: Claude S. Ayakawa I may be wrong and probably is but I just cannot imagine a Blu-Ray disc would be replicated from a sub standard element such as a soft telecine master. It happens all the time. This is the business-minded, profit protecting "let's do as little as we have to and just make it good enough" ethic at work. Movie studio executives are finding out the hard way they cannot dust off some 10 year old HD telecine master originally used to author an old DVD and dupe it for Blu-ray. The results get trashed by critics and consumers alike. In some cases we get lucky and the studio goes back and fixes the problem. Sony did that with The Fifth Element after its first try was unanimously savaged. The "fixed" version was sourced from a newer film scan and AVC encoded in a more careful manner. Still, some studio heads insist on doing things to screw up a Blu-ray release. Gladiator is one of the latest examples. Over zealous use of "dynamic noise reduction" along with too much edge enhancement have ruined that high definition release. That Blu-ray has to be redone before I'll be willing to upgrade from the old DVD I have. It's definitely worth it to check out lots of reviews of any movie on Blu-ray you're looking at buying, especially if you already own the movie on DVD and are looking to upgrade it to high definition. quote: Claude S. Ayakawa As far as WOLF is concerned, I can see no reason why the beginning of the movie would be gorgeous and fall apart at about the forty minute point. It just does not make any sense. If the cinematography is inconsistent the results on any presentation are going to be just as inconsistent. The DP has to get the shot correct in the camera. If he doesn't it won't matter how much you try to polish it up in post. This is especially true for soft focus or focus that is completely missed altogether. I've seen a lot of movies where outdoor, daylight shots look colorful and highly detailed while the interior scenes look less than ideal. The DP's choices of camera, lens and film stock, along with the exposure and aperture settings, will all impact the image. A lot of shooting situations are going to involve compromise, with rushed schedules being a big factor.  |  IP: Logged Claude S. Ayakawa Film God Posts: 2738 From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 12-05-2009 03:30 PM                        Bobby, The color shift runs throughout the film from start to end of THE SEARCHERS and is a pity. Other than the poor color, I was very happy with the image quality and it looked very sharp and clear even on my brother;s 50 inch Sony 1080p set I just watched ITS A WONDERFUL LIFE on Blu-Ray last night and I agree with the positive comments about this movie from all the reviews I had read. The only person who did not agree about the picture quality is Robert Harris who complained about the scrubbed out grain in the image. He also faulted PATTON for the same reason and I also disagree. -Claude  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-05-2009 04:16 PM                     Claude, what are you using to compare in judging The Searchers to have badly shifted color? A previous DVD release? DVD Beaver has two different reviews of The Searchers, one of which contains screen shots comparing the Blu-ray to two previous DVD versions. I prefer how the Blu-ray looks even when using those screen shots to compare. In general, I disagree with using screen shots as a measuring tool to judge Blu-ray image quality because a single frame grab really isn't showing all of the image data (certain details from inter-frame compression get dropped). Regarding Patton, that release certainly was botched by over-use of DNR. I realize lots of people don't like looking at a grainy film image, but every digital filter designed to scrub grain out of an image will also eliminate native image detail in the process. Lots of important details can be eliminated by DNR, such as fabric weave on clothing and even precise edge detail -but the image manipulators then go nuts with sharpening filters to restore the edge detail. You get nasty ringing and other halo issues as a result. The worst thing that can happen through use of DNR is elimination of skin textures. Skin pours, tiny wrinkles and other surface details are subtle features that make skin look like skin. DNR can make all that disappear and look like wax or clay instead. Patton has the waxy faces problem.  |  IP: Logged Claude S. Ayakawa Film God Posts: 2738 From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 12-05-2009 04:36 PM                        Bobby, I am not comparing the color quality to anything except what I am seeing with my two eyes. With my experience as a person who worked for a professional color lab as a customer printer shortly after finishing my studies at Brooks Institute and my forty three years as a a nationally and internationally recognized professional photographer I know the difference between good and faded color when I see it. I have not viewed PATTON on my brother's large HDTV. I only saw it on my small screen and that could account for the reason I could not see the wax like faces Robert Harris and you had stated. Perhaps, I am very fortunate to have a small screen and not be able to see image flaws on the PATTON disc. -Claude  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-05-2009 05:24 PM                     Claude, I do remember the article about the transfer being made and that they did have problems getting the full spectrum of color back so it looked like an I.B. print. I also believe the red rock is slightly off color as a result. It does still look pretty darn good though. I am also pretty sure at least some of it came from the VV camera negatives and possibly some other sections might have been from B&W VV seps. I guess if I was seeing it in a theater I'd be a bit more picky... that would make any color imbalance all that much more easy to see. I checked my Samsung TV with the USL Color Meter we had when I worked at CLACO and amazingly it was almost dead on so I didn't mess with the adjustments. So I can't question the TV here. The other thing you have to ask yourself is which color balance for any movie IS correct? Eastman back then was nothing to write home about, it's better today and much closer to real life colors but still not perfect, I.B. Technicolor is also not representative of true color. I've always thought of I.B. as "Color Magic" though. Mark  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-05-2009 06:00 PM                     There is also another issue that proper color can be a subjectively judged thing. One expert's idea of proper color could be seen as garish to another expert. Just look at the way color is deliberately altered with so many contemporary movies. O Brother Where Art Thou? had its original negative photographed as well as possible only to have its brilliant colors deliberately drained to suit a dust bowl appearance. I remember an extra feature on the Platinum Edition DVD of Seven which showed an image editor actively working from original camera negative scans. The original imagery had proper looking color. The movie itself had a very desaturated, earthy tone. One other tidbit to point out about The Searchers, its Monument Valley scenery and Technicolor saturation is actually very absurd compared to the part of the United States in which the movie is written to take place: North Texas and the southern Great Plains. I live in the region of the United States in which The Searchers historically takes place. This area looks nothing like Monument Valley. There are a few mountains, but the Wichita Mountains don't look like the mesas and buttes in the four corners area. The blazing hot summers here will often feature hazy skies and if there hasn't been much rain the wild vegetation will be tan and brown. Another absurd point about The Searchers: how the Indians are dressed. Comanches don't dress like that. A Comanche Chief doesn't wear a Sioux tribe war bonnet. None of the many other tribes that inhabit Oklahoma do either. In the 1800s some Comanches did run raids across the Red River into North Texas, and sometimes chose to do it during a full moon in a certain time of year. Texas settling near the river would dread the "Comanche Moon." After raiding South the bandits would return north across the river with impunity. The boundary into "Indian Territory" was a pretty bad thing back then. It allowed some people to commit murder and pretty much get away with it.  |  IP: Logged Claude S. Ayakawa Film God Posts: 2738 From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 12-05-2009 06:23 PM                        Try checking the documentary about the production of THE SEARCHER on the Blu-Ray disc as I had suggested in my previous post and you will be able to see what I am talking about the film's faded color. The film clips from the movie in the documentary has outstanding color compared to the movie. -Claude  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-05-2009 06:46 PM                     The documentary (which is in 480p) is using footage from one of the previous DVD releases. The first DVD release was broadly criticized for many encoding problems. The 2006 DVD release was criticized for its green skies and overdone yellow channel. The Blu-ray version doesn't have those issues even though the color looks more muted compared to the 2006 DVD.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-05-2009 08:22 PM                     Don't forget too that there are things one gives up to put movies on Disk but it HD or NTSC.... Contrast range, coloremitry, and color purity, etc. are all no where near what they were on the original film. Mark  |  IP: Logged Claude S. Ayakawa Film God Posts: 2738 From: Waipahu, Hawaii, USA Registered: Aug 2002 posted 12-06-2009 12:51 PM                        I had my HDTV for four months when I inquired how I can get a deeper black background on my HDTV when watching 'scope' movies on my set and Bobby had suggested I adjust my TV by turning down the backlight. When I did that, I did get a deeper black background and had corrected the problem. I just learned last night it had done something else. I had not yet adjusted my TV when I had purchased and watched THE SEARCHERS and was very disappointed with the color. After how Booby, Mark and several Blu-Ray online reviewers had said the color on THE SEARCHERS is great, I could not understand why I could not agree with all of you. After watching a football game last night when our University of Hawaii Warriors got slaughtered by Wisconsin 51/10, I decided to check the BD of THE SEARCHERS and I could not believe what I saw. Instead of the pale faded looking image, I was watching scenes that had very good color and the outdoor scenes looked spectacular. I suspect, adjusting my backlight on my HDTV was the reason for the improved image. I did however notice traces of color fading in the movie that had indicated that the transfer element that was used for the replication of the Blu-Ray disc was made from the original Eastmancolor negatives rather than the three strip separation elements. In a way, this situation reminds me of the time when Mark had complained that the BD of GRAND TORINO was bad when some of us found there was nothing wrong with our copies. As it turned out, it was an incorrect setting on his playback system that was causing the problem. -Claude  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 12-06-2009 08:56 PM                     That is interesting Claude and I;m glad you found the problem. There are a few flaws in Searchers but considering it's age it's in amazing shape. With my playback or 7.5 units of video problem it was a setting in the BD PLayer. In Japan they have black level at 0 ire or 0 video. Here in North and South America with NTSC and I believe HDTV its 7.5 IRE or 7.5 units of video level. My player was outputting it as though it was set to 0 IRE causing the blacks to look crushed. Mark  |  IP: Logged

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