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Topic: Poseidon: IMAX in Scope?

Eric Hooper
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 532
From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Registered: May 2003

posted 05-13-2006 05:53 PM

I saw Poseidon: The IMAX Experience, and was surprised it was in 'scope' on the IMAX screen, with the tops and bottoms of the screen blank.

Is this how the IMAX version is supposed to be, or were we shown a 35mm print and charged the $15 IMAX price?

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1383
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 05-13-2006 06:18 PM

Starting with the second MATRIX film, all IMAX DMR conversions originally composed for the scope format(both Super 35 and true scope) have retained their OAR (or very close to it). The black bars at the top and bottom are normal for this format.

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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."

Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05-13-2006 07:46 PM

Which is all the more reason for such films to simply get a 5/70 blowup print.

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 05-15-2006 10:20 AM

To compare approximate image areas:

A 2.39:1 image "letterboxed" on a 15-perf 70mm frame:
2.74 X 1.15 inches = 3.15 square inches

Normal 1.43:1 15-perf 70mm full frame projectable image area:
2.74 X 1.91 inches = 5.23 square inches

A 2.39:1 image "letterboxed" on a 5-perf 70mm frame:
1.912 x 0.800 inches = 1.53 square inches

Normal 2.20:1 5-perf 70mm projectable image area (SMPTE 152):
1.912 X 0.870 inches = 1.66 square inches

Normal 35mm "scope" 2.39:1 projectable image area (SMPTE 195):
0.825 x 0.690 inches = 0.57 square inches

Bottom line: the 2.39:1 image "letterboxed" on the 15-perf 70mm frame still has about twice the image area that a 5-perf 70mm print would allow. BOTH 70mm formats offer a significant increase in projectable image area over a 35mm "scope" print.

But IMHO, the main reason some distributors have released feature films to IMAX theatres is that they value the infrastructure that IMAX provides as part of their "DMR" feature release program.

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Frank Angel
Film God

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From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-16-2006 02:06 PM

But wouldn't films shot on Super 35 be able to produce an image very close to IMAX full frame (they extract full frame from S35 for broadcast TV, no?) Or if not the entire IMAX ratio, at least reduce the wasted area and fill more of the screen? Letterboxing in the IMAX square is like cropped 1.85 -- a waste of film geography and resolution.

If they were to put an original scope image on the IMAX release print as a near full frame anamporphic image, they could use a much longer fl lens and all that DMX processing might not need to be as severe because the release print wouldn't have to be magnified as nearly much, ala Glen Breggren's ISCOvision. Then scope for IMAX would be the same as scope for 35mm. Nice an bright too!

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John Pytlak
Film God

Posts: 9987
From: Rochester, NY 14650-1922
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 05-16-2006 02:18 PM

There was an industry program (headed by Dave Richards of MIT) called "Apex" that was evaluating the feasibility of using an anamorphic lens for projection of 8-perf 70mm to a widescreen aspect ratio. Not sure what the status is.

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Paul Linfesty
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1383
From: Bakersfield, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 05-16-2006 03:14 PM

quote: Frank Angel
But wouldn't films shot on Super 35 be able to produce an image very close to IMAX full frame (they extract full frame from S35 for broadcast TV, no?)

I believe APOLLO 13 used this technique.

quote: Frank Angel
Letterboxing in the IMAX square is like cropped 1.85 -- a waste of film geography and resolution.

A waste of film, yes. Resolution, no. IMAX is set up for one projection and lens throw, unlike 35mm.

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Mike Schindler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1039
From: Oak Park, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 05-16-2006 06:18 PM

quote: Frank Angel
But wouldn't films shot on Super 35 be able to produce an image very close to IMAX full frame (they extract full frame from S35 for broadcast TV, no?) Or if not the entire IMAX ratio, at least reduce the wasted area and fill more of the screen? Letterboxing in the IMAX square is like cropped 1.85 -- a waste of film geography and resolution.

I read somewhere that they give the filmmakers this option, but no one does it because then the compositions would be all messed up.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-17-2006 12:00 PM

quote: Mike Schindler
I read somewhere that they give the filmmakers this option, but no one does it because then the compositions would be all messed up.

Yah, that's the lip-service you hear off and on, but when it comes down to it, these same filmmakers never seem to bothered when their wide screen movies are presented 4:3 unletterboxed on broadcast TV to hundreds of millions of viewers. Anyone remember those horrific years of pan & scan abortions?

Ah me, the world if full of such odd contradictions.

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Mike Schindler
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Oak Park, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 05-17-2006 01:44 PM

I would think that the filmmakers are very bothered by 4:3 broadcasts of their widescreen movies. The difference is that those are probably network or studio-controlled. With Imax, they have the freedom to do whatever they want. Either way, it seems preferable to lose image size in favor of composition.

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Dan Suomi
Film Handler

Posts: 53
From: Aurora/Oswego, IL
Registered: Jul 2004

posted 05-17-2006 04:34 PM

I think this all stems from when IMAX DMR'd SW EP 2. It was converted from the original scope image to fill the IMAX screen, I am assuming they did pan and scan to do that. I know I fielded a lot of complaints from our guests about it, I could only imagine how may calls IMAX got themselves. So, they probably decided to offer the fimmakers both either full screen or do wide screen with the original intended aspect ratio. I asked DKP about why Matrix was letter boexed when it first came out and I was told it's beacuse the directors wanted the film to be in its original aspect ratio. I am assuming they do this for all films now. I know Ant Bully will be full screen beacuse the trailer is full.

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Michael Coate
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1904
From: Los Angeles, California
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 05-17-2006 08:20 PM

Actually, the IMAX version of "Star Wars Episode II Attack Of The Clones" was a combination of being letterboxed and panned-and-scanned. The active image area was in the ballpark of 1.85:1 (1.81:1 according to DKP) and, if I remember correctly, the matting was entirely at the top of the frame rather than being split equally top and bottom.

This clearly was a compromise and attempt to please everyone, but in the end I think this sort of thing pleases no one. The general audience would prefer the screen filled with image; the film buffs knowledgeable about the technology would prefer the original ratio letterboxed.

Just another reason why this IMAX DMR stuff was a bad idea.

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Brian Michael Weidemann
Expert cat molester

Posts: 944
From: Costa Mesa, CA United States
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 05-17-2006 10:39 PM

quote: Dan Suomi
I fielded a lot of complaints from our guests

Complaints or no complaints, they bought tickets, right? IMAX tried to enter mainstream cinema and succeeded, as far as I can tell. Not SUCH a bad idea, after all. Even if they DO compromise a little integrity by not fully utilizing the system's capabilities.

We get people complaining when the movie they wanted to see was NOT in IMAX! "Sorry, ma'am. The National CineMedia 'Big Screen Concerts' aren't in IMAX." "But it says 'Big Screen', and the website said the IMAX theatre!" "Yes, ma'am, but only so far as our megaplex is called the Irvine Spectrum 20 Plus IMAX ... that doesn't mean every movie or event will be in the IMAX auditorium." "Well, it should be!"

[Shrug]

Ant Bully should fill most of the screen because it's from a flat movie. Robots also was flat, and its IMAX version filled the screen beautifully; a much more effective use of the IMAX aspect ratio.

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Mike Schindler
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1039
From: Oak Park, IL, USA
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 05-18-2006 01:37 PM

quote: Michael Coate
Just another reason why this IMAX DMR stuff was a bad idea.

But in the end, they solved the problem by not compromising, and making what the film buffs (and God) know to be the right choice.

And what are the other reasons? Everyone keeps talking about how the industry should bring back 70mm. As John's numbers indicate, this is twice as good. The only argument I've heard against Imax DMR is that it wastes a lot of film. But who really cares? Sure, ticket prices may be a bit higher, but if you compare it grain to grain or whatever with 35mm, you're still getting more emulsion for your money. [Smile]

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-21-2006 04:59 PM

I specifically went into the city to see a film in the Sony IMAX Theatre at Lincoln Center (for the life of me I cannot remember the title). I thought, how great is this, being able to finally see major Hollywood titles in IMAX. I didn't mind paying a premium ticket price. I had only seen APOLLO 13 at the SMPTE demo of DMX in this theatre and had been waiting for the next time I could see a feature in IMAX. When I saw this title was playing, I was couldn't wait to see it.

When the lights dimmed, we were treated to a few 35mm trailers, which surprised me a little, but I figured that was the easiest way for the theatre to cross-plug their other screens. The trailers looked drab and lifeless on the huge screen and pretty soft focus at that. Then, just before the feature started, here comes a snipe stating something like, "The following feature motion picture will be presented in standard 35mm projection; this does not represent the superior image quality of the IMAX Experience." I was so stunned that I literally said loud enough for everyone to hear, "Then what the hell did I just pay $15 for?" It got a chear. I thought I was going to see an IMAX conversion.

Now that's downright dirty pool.

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