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Author Topic: Did I see D-Cinema done wrong? Michael Barry Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 584 From: Sydney, NSW, Australia Registered: Nov 1999 posted 05-30-2004 12:20 PM                     Well, today I finally got a chance to see first-hand what has been discussed on these forums for a while now...D-Cinema. I saw a presentation of 'The Day After Tomorrow'. It was depressing...and I'm talking purely about the picture quality! What was wrong? Contrast was poor. Black levels were simply not there, peak whites were not bright enough to even be called peak whites, and there was no true highlight or shadow detail: dynamically, the image hit a brick wall of either grey (supposedly black) or dull off-white (supposedly white). The focus and resolution were poor, especially in wide shots - they were actually soft and didn't have nearly enough detail. They reminded me of really bad release prints with a LOT of printer slippage. As the movie progressed, I yearned for some brightness, sharpness, contrast, dynamic range...in other words, the very things that actually give LIFE to the visuals...but those qualities simply weren't there. The image was lifeless, dead. I've read many, many opinions about D-Cinema on these forums and elsewhere, and either a) Others are being WAY too kind in their assessment, or b) I saw digital done wrong. Or maybe both. Or do I need to see a Pixar film or a Powerpoint presentation on one of these things in order to 'get it'? The biggest challenge to getting this thing to look even remotely like film is to increase the contrast. There is a lot of talk about increasing resolution to match film, but will it be possible to reach film's formidable contrast and latitude?  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-30-2004 12:55 PM                     Boy you must have seen one of the better ones How big was the image and how far back were you seated?  |  IP: Logged Michael Barry Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 584 From: Sydney, NSW, Australia Registered: Nov 1999 posted 05-30-2004 01:13 PM                     The screen was approximately 40-45 feet wide (in scope). I was sitting near the back of the theatre, at least 3-4 screen heights away. What is the maximum size screen that a DLP projector can still display 16 footlamberts of brightness with a 7K xenon, I wonder?  |  IP: Logged Mattias Ohlson Expert Film Handler Posts: 180 From: Falun, Sweden Registered: Mar 2003 posted 05-30-2004 03:15 PM                     Michael B. Can you provide what projector was used? Without knowing the projector it is hard to comment. The brightest dlp are up to cinema standards with as large screens as 70 feet. Which theater did you visit in Sydney? Cr or black level of film are not normally better than digital cinema. What is more likely to be better is perhaps shadow detail. If they have done a bad job with the digital copy then that is to blame. The range in picture quality from the best dvd to the worst is huge. If they used digital intermediat in a bad way the film copy might be of poor quality too. Without knowing how the movie was produced and what projected the picture any comment is speculation.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-30-2004 03:28 PM                     "The brightest dlp are up to cinema standards with as large screens as 70 feet." Only in your dreams 7K is the norm for 40' images and they rarely hit the 12fl level  |  IP: Logged Mattias Ohlson Expert Film Handler Posts: 180 From: Falun, Sweden Registered: Mar 2003 posted 05-30-2004 03:45 PM                     Mr McLeod Are you saying that 7kW is the norm for 40 feet wide with a digital projector or are you commenting on what gives you acceptable brightness on screen with a film projector? I guess that TI can overstat what dlp can do but only 40 compared with 70 wide?  |  IP: Logged Paul Linfesty Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1383 From: Bakersfield, CA, USA Registered: Nov 1999 posted 05-30-2004 03:53 PM                     quote: Gordon McLeod they rarely hit the 12fl level But when they do then 12fl is equivelent to 16fl from a film projector (open gate).  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 05-30-2004 04:05 PM                     Most of the DLP use a 7K lamp for screens in the 55' wide range ( and most still do not look all that bright) and yes 12fl dlp is considered the same as 16fl for film  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 05-30-2004 06:05 PM                    Since film projection screen illumination is measured without film in the gate it's likely (I've not measured it) that with clear film (positive stock, clear after processing, not just blank base stock) the whitest white might well be around 12 fL when open gate it's 16 fL. This difference owing to the absorption of the film base and the emulsion (which even when "clear" contains a tiny bit of fog). If that's correct then that would be the standard of comparison.  |  IP: Logged Bruce Hansen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 847 From: Stone Mountain, GA, USA Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-30-2004 06:31 PM                     Could some pop-corn jockey have screwed around with the projector? Do the optics need to be cleaned, but no one knows how to do it? Or does DLP just suck? I remember cleaning the lenses on a 3 tube projector in a bar (lots of smoking going on), and it produced a much better looking picture. The DLPs out there now, have been in service for some time now, and if they have not been maintained, it should be noticeable.  |  IP: Logged Dennis Benjamin Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1445 From: Denton, MD Registered: Feb 2002 posted 05-30-2004 06:35 PM                        The other thing you have to remember is that if the movie was not filmed with digital cameras - the quality will not get better when transferring to digital. It usually has the same quality. Like transferring a home movie from VHS to DVD.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 05-30-2004 06:58 PM                        Uhhhh... that's insinuating that film is inferior in resolution and image quality to digital cameras. The statement "D-cinema is to DVD as Film is to VHS" is NOT true. There should be more than enough resolution in film to make a good copy, right? Going from Film to D-Cinema should be like going from DVD to SVCD (more or less). The fact that D-Cinema projectors require larger bulbs for the same sized screen makes it extremely cost-inneffective. Only the studios save money. Until these problems are solved, D-Cinema is just gay (or "teh ghey" as a wise man once said).  |  IP: Logged Bobby Henderson "Ask me about Trajan." Posts: 10973 From: Lawton, OK, USA Registered: Apr 2001 posted 05-30-2004 07:18 PM                     Just to throw in this one, any claims about doing movie presentations right with 70 foot wide screens really has to be called into question. I haven't seen giant screen stadium seated houses properly light such a screen with 35mm. Any claims about DLP doing the same is just silly. The only way to correctly project a movie onto a 70 foot wide screen is by using a 5 perf 70mm print and a good 70mm projector.  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 05-30-2004 08:43 PM                    To answer the original question, yes, it does sound like you saw a bad presentation. True, digital (presuming 1.2K DLP) is lacking in resolution, contrast, color depth, etc. compared to film but a decent show still looks okay to the casual observer and what was described sounds pretty mediocre by anyone's standards.  |  IP: Logged Dan Lyons Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 698 From: Seal Beach, CA Registered: Sep 2002 posted 05-30-2004 09:03 PM                     quote: Joe Redifer Until these problems are solved, D-Cinema is just gay (or "teh ghey" as a wise man once said). Joe, Can't you come up with something more clever than such an idiotic phrase? danny  |  IP: Logged

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