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Topic: Kinoton & DLP (with help from Barco)

William Bunch
Film Handler

Posts: 87
From: Misawa, Japan
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 01-11-2002 01:39 AM

Have any of you seen the new Kinoton version of DLP projector? I wonder is this event moving in the right direction. They have geared up with Barco for the 3 DLP chips and are climing 12,000 ANSI-lumen with a 3KW xenon. Contrast 1000:1 All the specs are on their website.

I could only find one review on the Internet and it was all written in German. Will be interesting over the next few years.

Bill BuncH
Misawa, Japan

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Don Sneed
Master Film Handler

Posts: 451
From: Texas City, TX, USA
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 01-11-2002 03:13 AM

Hey William,

My company will be installing a Barco D-Cimema in Ebina Japan on our next install in Feb. I will let you know how it comes out !!

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Pete Naples
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1565
From: Dunfermline, Scotland
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 01-11-2002 03:25 AM

Not heard of Kinotons DLP. Why would they go to BARCO for the chips?? As BARCO get them from TI, like everyone else, nearly.
Are you sure you're not referring to BARCO D-CineStar DLP, on a Kinoton D Cinema Console?? This is the beastie that I played with on the installation course at BARCO's plant in Belgium, and very impressive it is too.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-11-2002 05:00 AM

I have had a chance to see a number of DLP's by different manufacturers as well as the JVC system which IMHO knocks the socks off of all the DLP's. The pixels are far less noticable and the color was much more like film, and it seemed to have a greater contrast ratio capability. Many other advantages as well such as a greatly simplified optical system.
Mark @ GTS

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William Bunch
Film Handler

Posts: 87
From: Misawa, Japan
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 01-11-2002 05:18 AM

Don, Would that be in the Kawasaki portion of Kanagawa?
Have you ever visited? The Japanese are very picky customers and will not visit a theater with less than a first rate performance. In other words ALL theaters in Japan have curtains. The waterfall type at that. What amazes me about their theaters here is the enormous size of the screens! Huge! Even the DLP projections are so big and bright.

I had the pleasure of touring some booths last summer thanks to friends at Continental Far East (professional cinema installers out of Tokyo). Those theaters were in the Yokohama and Ebina (Kanagawa) areas.

Good luck on your project.

Bill BuncH
Misawa, Japan

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William Bunch
Film Handler

Posts: 87
From: Misawa, Japan
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 01-11-2002 05:29 AM

You guys keep talking about pixels. I see them on the sattelite programs I get on my small dish and also on the American Forces Network feeds we get here in northern Japan. But I've not been able to see them in a DLP theater here (Japan) even on the huge screens we have. And believe me I have been looking.

I love film just as much as you all out here on this forum but what I'm experiencing first hand is simply spectacular.

This kind of reminds me of the format wars of the 70's. Most of us were still using open reel tapes and just getting familiar with the 8-track when Phillips introduced the now familiar Cassette format. And the rest is history.

I'll keep watching, looking and listning.

Bill Bunch
Misawa, Japan
Army, Air Force Echange System

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Richard Fowler
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 01-11-2002 08:33 AM

We are a Barco D-Cinema dealer. Barco is working with Kinoton, Cinemeccanica and one other manufacturer to supply product. Barco is of course using the TI chips but I feel, at this point, they are packaging a better end product for cinema use. Barco is on their second version of projectors with improved color processing to look less video like....Barco is also suppling the light source vendors a custom Dichoric glass reflector vs the metal units used by the other companies since they feel this gives better performance. The Kinoton was featured in the Barco booth at ShowEast and was impressive.
The resolution is on the D-cinema TI chips are still at the SXGA stage, but then again many fourth generation, high speed printed 35mm prints that theatres receive + the lenses in use, probably are at the same general level. UXGA ILDA chips available from JVC and other vendors of course raises the quality bar and on the low end Sanyo has come out with a UXGA LCD projector with 7700 lumens with a street price of $35,000 so 2002 should see some competitive changes and improvements in the market.....I love film but final presentation to the audience is what is important.......the Swedish government is looking into low end video projectors for many of their community owned cinemas since the "presentation" is better than the worn out prints these cinemas get weeks after the major centers.
Richard Fowler
TVP-Theatre & Video Products Inc. www.tvpmiami.com

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Don Sneed
Master Film Handler

Posts: 451
From: Texas City, TX, USA
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 01-11-2002 10:18 AM

William, the company I work for Universal Cinema Services, in Arlington Texas install the complete theatre, I do the projection & sound,& the THX re-certify in Japan...we are currently equipmenting & installing for Virgin Cinema Japan, we just open a 9-plex in Minami Osawa, next will be a 10-plex in Ebina Japan, I also service the navy air base in Asugi Japan & the science museum in Tokyo which has Megsystem 8/35mm projection, I been to Barco installtion training class in Atlanta Georgia, this will be my 1st D-cinema install, of course with the help of Barco techs...I'll let you know how it turns out...the install starts Feb.3th, I leave for Guam in the morning, then back home to Houston for a week, whoooaaa weeee home only for a week, I been out of the county since August, I pay rent for my furniture, I just hope my Ford Explorer will still start!!

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Larry Shaw
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 238
From: Boston, MA, USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 01-11-2002 12:07 PM

I'm just confirming that the "Kinoton DLP" is actually a colaberation with Barco. There are actually 2 models, one for cinema, one for studio use. There is one in the Zigfeld in NYC, I believe.

-Larry

------------------
Larry Shaw
Boston Light & Sound, Inc.
North American Distributor of Kinoton GmbH
290 North Beacon Street
Boston, MA 02135-1990
Tel: 617-787-3131 x104 Fax: 617-787-4257
E-Mail: larry@blsi.com
Web site: http://www.blsi.com/kinoton

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Dave Bird
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 777
From: Perth, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2000

posted 01-11-2002 04:30 PM

How do ANSI-lumens compare to foot-lamberts? Is the first a "measured output" (into the air) while the other a measured brightness of the screen? What's the dif?

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Pat Moore
Master Film Handler

Posts: 363

Registered: Mar 2000

posted 01-11-2002 04:58 PM

Hiya;

My shameless plug is that Strong also makes xenon consoles for use with the Cinema DLP Projectors. Barcos have been used with a few DPC versions, though we've done a few more with Digital Projection machines.

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 01-12-2002 03:58 PM

For Dave, IIRC one foot Lambert is the luminance of one square foot of unity gain screen illuminated by one lumen. As you say, the output of the source is measured in lumens and the reflected light from the screen is measured in foot Lamberts (or cd/m^2 for you MKS guys).

Cheers!

Paul

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Aaron Haney
Master Film Handler

Posts: 265
From: Cupertino, CA, USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01-14-2002 12:50 AM

quote:
William Bunch wrote:
You guys keep talking about pixels. I see them on the sattelite programs I get on my small dish and also on the American Forces Network feeds we get here in northern Japan. But I've not been able to see them in a DLP theater here (Japan) even on the huge screens we have. And believe me I have been looking.

William, I'm sorry to say this, but you need to get your eyes checked. Seriously.

I was in Dallas over Christmas, and I went to see "Ocean's Eleven" in DLP at the Cinemark Legacy. (Not the first time I've seen DLP, by the way.) In the very first shot in the movie, we see Clooney sitting in a chair, a nice wide shot, and I notice the highlight on the side of his nose.

It was a jagged edge.

That sort of thing continued all throughout the movie. It's amazing just how big a single pixel at 1280x1024 resolution is when blown up to movie screen size. I was sitting there during the film, thinking to my self "How can anyone NOT notice that? What on Earth is wrong with all those people who rave about how good DLP is?" Enormous amounts of detail that were there in the 35mm version of the film were simply missing in the DLP version. It was pathetic. DLP's current resolution is not good enough to replace film. Nothing is going to convince me otherwise.

The future of cinema is definitely digital video, but as far as I'm concerned, DLP is crap. Let's wait and see what D-ILA and laser projection have to offer.

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William Bunch
Film Handler

Posts: 87
From: Misawa, Japan
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 01-14-2002 03:27 PM

Aaron, You might be right. I celebrate my 52nd birthday tomorrow. I wear reading glasses but the last time I was checked could still read the newspaper headlines from across the street. I do have another checkup coming soon.

I do remember seeing pixels at most of the DLP demonstrations at the last ShowWest. I don't remember any at all on the screen I watched in Tokyo in early November. Could it be that we are seeing different generations of the same process? Each time a new display unit comes out the specs seem to be upgraded from the last. Could not the same be said about the scanning process also? Without any standards yet and both of us being half a world away we may be looking at very different things.

For now this remains a spectator sport for me anyway. Literally.
Now where did I put my glasses.

Bill Bunch
Misawa, Japan

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Paul Mayer
Oh get out of it Melvin, before it pulls you under!

Posts: 3836
From: Albuquerque, NM
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 01-14-2002 04:20 PM

For now, it seems that one needs to sit at least three screen heights back in order not to see gross signs of pixelating with the TI DLP displays. At the ETC in Hollywood that means at least mid-house, and at the El Capitan (also in Hollywood) that means the rear of the orchestra or the first row of the balcony. Even then you can still see them if you're looking for them. But I imagine most theater-goers sitting at those distances would not notice unless it's pointed out to them.

Cheers,

Paul
Unemployed mercenary film/video projectionist
"Otaku wa tsurai yo." <-- Yeah, bad Japanese pun. Sue me.
It's tough being a fan.

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