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Topic: DCinema equipment lifespan - why so short?

Matt Fields
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 545
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 04-04-2008 02:14 PM

I have heard that the expected lifespan of the current Digital Cinema equipment is 8-10 years and then the equipment becomes "obsolete". Why is that? What is expected to replace the current generation of projectors/servers?

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Alan Gouger
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 501
From: Bradenton, FL, USA
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 04-04-2008 02:33 PM

I think in reality it is half that more like 4 or 5 years. The technology is still in its infancy. Early adapters pay the price to be on the cutting edge and in most cases turn out to be the beta testers the manufactures learn from advancing the technology for the next model.

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 04-04-2008 02:42 PM

quote: Matt Fields
Why is that?

It's computer based electronics. Obsoleting is a given fact and the quicker they developed the technology the quicker it will need to be upgraded.

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 04-04-2008 04:18 PM

At this point the projector specific hardware improvements will slow down. Software upgrades will remain as the fastest element of change. The the servers are going to last as long as the software updates will function on them. That doesn't mean that they will be best, of course, you always run the risk of a computer being out of date right out of the box. That is why computers are so much fun!

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-05-2008 07:17 AM

quote: Darryl Spicer
It's computer based electronics. Obsoleting is a given fact and the quicker they developed the technology the quicker it will need to be upgraded.

I always laugh at that answer... thats definately hogwash. Look at all the DTS 6's out there that are now going on 15 years old... they did not need to be upgraded just because newer DTS units appeared on the market. They continue to run just fine and they still get support from DTS and or Quality Presentations. No one can actually claim any lifespan YET for any piece of digital cinema gear... it is all to new. Dolby however has stated in their training classes a MINIMUM lifespan of 15 years for their server system. One of the major factors in obsoleting equipment is that improved gear is developed at a pretty fast rate... but like the DTS 6 that doesn't mean that everypone will adopt the newest latest piece of gear every time it emerges. In fact theater owners in general don't adopt any new equipment until the very last ounce of use is had from it... that could take decades! Another factor that DOES HELP slow this down is the standards that are in place. So in 15 years whats a server or a projector even going to look like? What resolution will we be using? How will we be storing films and on what type of media? What ever it is and what ever it looks like then we may very well still have the same standards we have today... Standards are much slower to develop than a tortise crawls.

Mark

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 04-05-2008 12:34 PM

Mark you are 100% correct!

As I stated as long as your hardware can take any software update and operate it properly there is no need to change that hardware. In fact most computer advances have to do with speed or memory. If the computer system works properly and is fast enough you don't need to update it just because something faster comes along.

I used the same computer for video editing for 7 or 8 years. The only reason I changed recently was the new software wouldn't work properly on the old hardware.

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 04-05-2008 02:18 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I always laugh at that answer... thats definately hogwash. Look at all the DTS 6's out there that are now going on 15 years old... they did not need to be upgraded just because newer DTS units appeared on the market. They continue to run just fine and they still get support from DTS and or Quality Presentations. No one can actually claim any lifespan YET for any piece of digital cinema gear... it is all to new. Dolby however has stated in their training classes a MINIMUM lifespan of 15 years for their server system. One of the major factors in obsoleting equipment is that improved gear is developed at a pretty fast rate... but like the DTS 6 that doesn't mean that everypone will adopt the newest latest piece of gear every time it emerges. In fact theater owners in general don't adopt any new equipment until the very last ounce of use is had from it... that could take decades! Another factor that DOES HELP slow this down is the standards that are in place. So in 15 years whats a server or a projector even going to look like? What resolution will we be using? How will we be storing films and on what type of media? What ever it is and what ever it looks like then we may very well still have the same standards we have today... Standards are much slower to develop than a tortise crawls.

When it comes to DTS the technology never really changed for it. As long as you could upgrade the drives and the firmware you didn't have to replace the unit. However, Supposedly DTS no longer supports the DTS 6 so in their mind it is obsolete. Obsolete doesn't mean you quit using it. But if future software doesn't take the older stuff into account it will then become useless. Look at the computer wave in the 90's. Shit was changing so fast that manufacturers didn't have time to change the literature in the box. Computer motherboards became strained and to the point of no longer being upgradeable. Operating systems where ever changing. I read on here somewhere where Access/IT was going to be changing out Doremi servers at Carmike locations to a DCI compliant unit...What does that tell you.

The big thing is that we are making a big change in technology here. We are making things computer based. You know that you can take a 35mm and run it for 30+ years so long as you have the parts. Now we are going to be using equipment that the manufacturers are saying only has a lifespan of 15 years. In 15 years who is going to be paying to replace all the equipment.
Film Companies.....nope they already payed for the first wave they will want all the savings by then.

Granted there will be a life span of some degree. But there will still be a point of obsoleting that will happen because of a technology change of some kind that will cause problems with what we have now.

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Ron Funderburg
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 814
From: Chickasha, Oklahoma, USA
Registered: Nov 2007

posted 04-05-2008 03:17 PM

So on a side note where does digital need to be in order to do the quality of 70MM on a big (75 foot or larger) screen? Can we expect that digital will get there in the near future.

Sony boast that the new 4K projectors pixel (at 15feet wide picture) is only the size of the L on the word Liberty on the quarter! They also say they can project a good (well they say great) picture 75 feet wide is that true or hype. Can you do this through software updates or is it hardware?

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Lyle Romer
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1400
From: Davie, FL, USA
Registered: May 2002

posted 04-05-2008 04:44 PM

4k probably gets you right about the quality of 35mm film done right (with respect to resolution, contrast is still not there with DLP or Sony SXRD).

To get to 70mm quality you probably would have to get to 8k.

For IMAX quality you'd probably need around 12k.

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Mark Gulbrandsen
Resident Trollmaster

Posts: 16657
From: Music City
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-05-2008 07:01 PM

quote: Darryl Spicer
When it comes to DTS the technology never really changed for it. As long as you could upgrade the drives and the firmware you didn't have to replace the unit

Yes! And D-Cinema technology will closley parallel it for the next upteen years because THERE ARE STANDARDS IN PLACE. And for that matter the DTS time code itself underwent some major changes but those changes could be accomodated through simple software upgrades... just like the switch from MPEG to JPEG was accomodated in D-Cinema. D-Cinema equipment will also parallel DTS in replacing drives and upgrading software to add new features and improve old features. Who knows... we may be replacing 2K light engines with 4 K or even 8K some day... It will more or less be one and the same thing. Anything computer based is more or less along these lines.

BTW Darryl, What theater other than local single screeners do you know of that has lasted for 30 years??? I don't know of a single location that has reached that age before its torn down or re-built. So how long film gear lasts is irrelevant to the entire issue.

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 04-05-2008 07:33 PM

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
BTW Darryl, What theater other than local single screeners do you know of that has lasted for 30 years??? I don't know of a single location that has reached that age before its torn down or re-built. So how long film gear lasts is irrelevant to the entire issue.

We had a theatre here that OPENED in 1976 and CLOSED in 2006. The theatre was a six screen theatre that was built by a family owned company called Mid-States Theatres. This company was then sold to a company called Sack theatres that when they combined changed thier name to USA Cinemas who then ran into money problems (Charles Goldwater was president at the time name ring a bell) and sold the company to Loews Theatres and we know where they went back and fourth with name changes. around 2001 or so, maybe sooner I can't remember. Loews sold off all the theatres in Ohio and Louisville, Ky to National Amusement. The lexinton theatres National Amusment didn't want so after a few years running the locations they shut them down. The remaining theatre was the six screen that reopened by an independent about a year later. The existing equipment was still in the building it was not removed. The building has since been demolished but the equipment was removed. The big fact of the mater is that the equipment that was in the building was the original equipment that was used in a couple of other locations that Loews had in town that they shut down. Those locations were built in the late 60's early 70's. So by the time it was all said and done the equipment being used was over 30 years old in a 6 screen theatre.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 04-05-2008 07:54 PM

Not to speak out of turn here, but I know of several multis in Lexington that are over 30 years old.

EDIT: I should've hit refresh before I got back to my desk and posted! Those are the ones I was thinking of, Darryl! Southpark (1976), Fayette Mall (1972-73), and Turfland Mall (1968).

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 04-05-2008 07:59 PM

Has the SMPTE standard for [dlp]

been completed yet? My understanding is that this still hasn't happened and that the DCI spec is incomplete (especially WRT 3D, variable frame rates, etc.).

Also, there are a number of 30+ year old multiplexes (some are converted singles or twins) in this area. Tim used to service one (originally a twin, now a 5-plex, opened in 1975). In any case, film and some sound equipment still has value when a theatre closes. It may get re-installed at another location, used for parts, or sold to another theatre through a dealer. How many 30-year-old computers have any value at all?

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Darryl Spicer
Film God

Posts: 3250
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 04-05-2008 08:01 PM

Tim,

There is only the Kentucky with it's second screen that is over 30 years old now. all the Mall screens are shut down now. The oldest builds in town that are more than two screens are 18 years old.

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Tim Reed
Better Projection Pays

Posts: 5246
From: Northampton, PA
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 04-05-2008 08:04 PM

Okay, thanks Darryl. It's been many years since I've been around there for more than a few days visit. [Smile]

I guess if we want to get technical, the Sky-Vue D/I is a twin, and it opened in 1948.

Yes, Scott... Chestnut Hill! [Wink]

There are plenty of locations out there over 30 years old.

I guess Mark's just talkin' out his [Moon]

again...

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