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Topic: Digibeta or HDcam?

Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 06-30-2010 01:18 AM

A venue called and said they are going to need to screen a video next month and wanted to know whether to bring it in on either Digibeta or HDcam. The venue has playback capability for neither and I have no idea what the rental charges for these decks might be. Would the Digibeta be wildly more expensive than an HDcam unit? Any suggestion to which format to lean towards? Price IS an issue at these place.

This will be going into two stacked Barco R2 Performers 3x DLPs (6000lumen; what the image lacks in rez/detail/contrast, you can't say it's not bright). Thanks

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Jonathan Smith
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 201
From: Youngstown, OH
Registered: Jan 2010

posted 06-30-2010 01:55 AM

You said that price will be an issue, so no doubt Digibeta will be far cheaper.

On the other hand, HDCam should provide a HUGE improvement in screen quality. If they're both in the same ballpark, rentalwise, and you can get the client to split the difference (if you can explain the situation), I'd highly recommend going with the latter option.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 06-30-2010 05:54 AM

What is the highest resolution that your video projector supports? What size screen?

Figure on $300-350/day to rent a Digi-Beta deck (usually a J-30; make sure to specify whether you want one with a component output or an SDI output, depending on what your scaler/projector takes) and $500-500/day for a JH-3 (which has component, SD-SDI, and HD-SDI outputs on all units).

If you can show 720p or better and the screen is large-ish, I would recommend HDCAM, especially if the tape is native 23.976 PsF.

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Sean McKinnon
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1712
From: Peabody Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 06-30-2010 09:16 AM

I prefer HD-CAM as you can get a high def signal form it whereas with a digi beta you can only get standard def. Scott's advice is good if your projector/scaler is capable of showing the higher resolution signal I would go for it. If not then digibeta is cheaper.

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Frank Angel
Film God

Posts: 5305
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 06-30-2010 01:37 PM

Thanks guys. Naturally I want the best quality as we are talking about a large screen -- 23ft height. The Barcos are capable of 1400x1050 SXGA (3 chip DLP) and have both 5 wire component as well as SDI/HDSDI and DVI inputs. In the end they will want to go with cheap. But the idea of spliting the difference in rental with the film-maker for HDCAM is a good idea.

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John Hawkinson
Film God

Posts: 2273
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 07-01-2010 08:39 PM

Find out what the source material was shot in. If it was shot in standard definition, HDCAM is [mostly] pointless.

--jhawk

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Sean McKinnon
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1712
From: Peabody Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 07-07-2010 11:47 AM

That's a really good point John. Sometimes people call and want to know what the "Best" format to bring their content on is and too often we do not consider if the original is SD or HD.

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-07-2010 12:18 PM

HDCAM has some (marginal) advantages from an exhibition point of view, even if the material originated on SD:

- easier to include in a program of other HDCAM material (mainly an issue with shorts programs)
- no aspect ratio confusion with 4x3, letterbox, and anamorphic; HD is 16x9 and narrower ratios are pillarboxed inside it (again, this is mostly an issue for shorts programs)

Of course, these don't really relate to image quality per se, and the reverse would apply to a program of 4x3 SD material.

I am both amazed and annoyed at how much video exhibition is still SD, even for HD-originated material. There is not one theatrical venue in the Boston area with a permanently installed HDCAM deck (several have Digi-Beta, and a couple have Blu-Ray). I hope that the situation is better in NYC and LA, at least.

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 07-07-2010 02:29 PM

quote: Scott Norwood
I am both amazed and annoyed at how much video exhibition is still SD, even for HD-originated material. There is not one theatrical venue in the Boston area with a permanently installed HDCAM deck (several have Digi-Beta, and a couple have Blu-Ray). I hope that the situation is better in NYC and LA, at least.

I can point out two venues here in L.A. area that have both BluRay and HDCAM decks in permanent install...both of my screening rooms at UC Irvine. [Smile]

I spec'd the decks for my new room I put in and donated the decks (as well as a CP-650 upgrade and other gear) to my original room there that I have been running for the last 12+ years.

Here's a link to the decks I installed:

http://www.markertek.com/Video-Equipment/HDV-Decks-VTR%27s/Sony-Electronics-Inc/HVR-M15AU.xhtml

They play mini DV as well as HDcam tapes. Cost only $2,300.00, would pay for itself in 4-6 rentals.

One of the only Sony products I actually like.

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Jonathan Smith
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 201
From: Youngstown, OH
Registered: Jan 2010

posted 07-07-2010 05:37 PM

quote: Scott Norwood
I am both amazed and annoyed at how much video exhibition is still SD, even for HD-originated material. There is not one theatrical venue in the Boston area with a permanently installed HDCAM deck (several have Digi-Beta, and a couple have Blu-Ray). I hope that the situation is better in NYC and LA, at least.

Yeah, look at those stupid preview projectors. What are they, 1.2K? Let's just say when a certain chain was showing "Wizard of Oz" in "HD" with one of those, they were guilty of blatant false advertising.

35mm slides might be a hassle, but they can hold 4K worth of data (not that they have the film-recorders set that high, but still).

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Scott Norwood
Film God

Posts: 8146
From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas)
Registered: Jun 99

posted 07-07-2010 11:51 PM

Tony's deck looks like HDV, not HDCAM. I've never had anyone ask for HDV as a screening format, but the decks will play DVCAM as well, so it's still a useful thing to have.

For HDCAM, the usual playback deck is the Sony JH-3 or HDW-D1800. You may need the pulldown card for the -1800 if your monitor/projector will not display 23.98PsF natively. If properly equipped, you can have it do pulldown only on the composite output (for a video monitor) and send the native 23.98 signal out the HD-SDI output (for the projector). The JH-3 will do pulldown internally without extra options, but it can't be applied only to the composite output.

The sucky part about the whole video thing is that the older SD formats won't go away, and a reasonably well equipped venue will need to be able to play back Beta SP, Digi-Beta, DVCAM, DVD, Blu-Ray, and HDCAM for years into the future. This is obviously not cheap and is in addition to 35mm and 16mm film. If you really want to be complete, add 3/4" and VHS. At least the last two aren't expensive.

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 07-08-2010 06:38 AM

For a theatre on the "budget"...a J-30 and a JH3 covers most things from HDCam on down except DVCam. The JH3 being the expensive player. The M2000 being my preferred VTR for HDCAM on down and, I think, the 2600 being the player-only version.

I too still see HDCam, Dbeta a lot with BetaSP certainly on the decline. DVCams are still in popular use.

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Sean McKinnon
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1712
From: Peabody Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 07-08-2010 12:40 PM

We can show HDCAM in both our houses with 2 permanent J-H3 Decks installed as well as DVCPro HD (Which is pretty much useless as I have heard of it being used only once in almost 2 years) for SD we have 2 J-30 SDI digi-beta decks and a 2 DSR-1800 DVCAM decks as well as DVD and Bluray (one each that we can swap around) and we can show files off a macbook pro with a DVI to HDSDI extender (our system is all SDI and HDSDI.

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Tony Bandiera Jr
Film God

Posts: 3067
From: Moreland Idaho
Registered: Apr 2004

posted 07-08-2010 12:51 PM

quote: Scott Norwood
Tony's deck looks like HDV, not HDCAM. I've never had anyone ask for HDV as a screening format, but the decks will play DVCAM as well, so it's still a useful thing to have.

Scott, I will double-check when I get to UCI today, but the decks I have will playback HDCAM tapes (but not record them). It was one of the reasons I bought those decks.

That and we run a lot of student films on Mini DV.

If I am wrong I will post an update.

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David E. Nedrow
Master Film Handler

Posts: 368
From: Columbus, OH, USA
Registered: Oct 2008

posted 07-08-2010 01:27 PM

Heh, good thing Steve put budget in quotes. Isn't the combined price of the two units north of $30K?

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