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Author Topic: The secret to ensuring early failure of digital projectors Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-12-2010 01:03 PM                     Please note this is a continuing discussion on a very important topic initiated in this thread. Please be sure to read it before jumping into this discussion. quote: Well, if we do talk 'fundamental', then why should we assume a HVAC to fail guaranteed, but not a projector? In a small enclosed space (such as a "projector box"), yes the HVAC is critical to prevent early failure of the projection equipment. Note that nobody here has said the projector won't fail. It will fail too, but a suitable climate is NECESSARY for your projector to be able to perform with a reasonable lifespan and minimal downtime. If you put a projector into a climate that could be described as hot, dusty or humid (or a combination), you are prematurely killing your digital projector! This isn't rocket science. Giving another extreme example to make the point, if your house is in the desert and your dog lives in your backyard with no shade, he probably won't live as long as he otherwise could have. Now what happens when you take his water away? Does that speed up his death any? Ya think? quote: Mark Gulbrandsen There is a new 16 plex going up in SAC that will put the 16 BARCO projectors in cubes and on lifts right in the auditorium. Talk about servicing nightmare! I can't imagine anything worse than this. I heard about that. And of course people are doing it because one guy did it and made a big stink about it in press releases...just like how AMC touted their HITS system so much that it fooled people into thinking this must be a good idea. All this accomplishes is the spread of ignorance. These people are making decisions based upon price, not what it will cost them...because after all few people these days are smart enough to look into the future more than about a week ahead.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-12-2010 04:46 PM                     I couldn't agree more Brad! I had heard of someone down in the south east also doing this a couple of years ago and thought it was a localized one time incident. Sadly thats not so. The auditorium has to be the worst place there can be to mount a projector... period. I would never even be interested in doing service work at a place like that. Nightmare central for sure. Now those lifts and little cubes the projectors live in(excuse me)... will be dying in... also have cost a small bundle if they are properly designed. Any lift of any sort that's over the top of humans at all has to be certified to do just that. Just as it takes special certified rigging to fly a live person on a stage... these mounts had best be human rated and uber well insured. If anyone gets injured for any reason there will be lawsuits flying to no end.\ Now on to equipment... where is the dirtest place in an auditorium??? Behind a screen AND up in the ceiling typically. It can also be the hotest place in both the winter AND summer! I could go on about this. Fortunately, all of my customers are smarter than this....! Oops... this IS one of my customers . Mark  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 10-12-2010 05:19 PM                     Brad, I know a projector and server need a well defined climate. I just doubt your fundamental statement that any HVAC will fail. It's a machine, just like a server or projector. And the technical complexity of a HVAC is lower than that of a server or projector. So why should I assume that a DCI system fails rarely, while a HVAC fails early? I could say the same on UPS. Still they make sense. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-12-2010 05:20 PM                     Good luck tweeking convergence there Mark!!! And remember, the suits don't care if you fall and break your spine and can never walk again. That's the insurance company's problem. Not having a booth sounds super cool in that press release AND (at least in the owner's minds) saves them MONEEEEEEYYY!!!! Carsten - why are you making a big stink about something I never said? Tell me where I said a digital projector is more reliable than an HVAC system? I didn't. Fact of the matter though is that I have actually had far more failures of air conditioning than with the digital projectors. I can also state that that the failures of the HVAC systems has cost me 3 light engines in a 6 month period in those stupid little "sky closets" Mark and I are talking about.  |  IP: Logged Jake Spell Master Film Handler Posts: 294 From: Johns Island SC Registered: May 2009 posted 10-12-2010 05:44 PM                     I can again back up brad with the A/C failure being commonplace. Most theaters, esp the big chains, think that it is far cheaper to NOT have a maintenance contract on their HVAC equipment, so things like filters and belts get ignored. And WHEN the unit breaks, mostly due to lack on maintenance, the theater wants it fixed as quickly and cheaply as possible. So this often results in patches made on the equipment and old worn out equipment being fixed/patched instead of being replaced. Like most big companies its all about the bottom line at the end of the month. Who cares if we spend $5000.00 over the next 5 years if we save $100.00 today.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-12-2010 06:03 PM                     Its because many people in this industry don't understand the concept of "cost of operation". Using Jake's example, if they can cut a corner to save $100 off of the bill today that will end up costing them $5000 in the long run, many corporate suits making these sort of decisions really DO think they are helping the company. This is precisely why I laugh when I hear of people installing Sony systems. Setting aside the whole SDDS issue, their system is by far the most expensive to operate on an hourly, daily, weekly, monthly or even yearly basis. Similary NEC projectors are much more expensive to operate than a comparable Christie model. Even if the Christie cost $5000 more than the NEC, that money will be saved very quickly making Christie the projector that is actually not only the cheaper product to buy, but also the smarter product to buy. Some people just can't do the basic math.  |  IP: Logged Mark Gulbrandsen Resident Trollmaster Posts: 16657 From: Music City Registered: Jun 99 posted 10-12-2010 08:22 PM                     I wish I could agree with that math you have going there Brad. So far that has not prooved itself to be true in the cases I have them installed in. There are several new lamps out for the NEC's as well as a much less expensive(than other manufacturers) extended warranty available for them. Like all other projectors you can also use regular cinema lamps for 2-D. And the extended warranty does not have to be purchased and decided upon when you purchase the projector(s). So far my problems with them have been zero. You can go on and on about the other projectors however like it or not each one has it's place on the map... Mark  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-12-2010 08:51 PM                     When I have the chance to dig it all out I'll start a fresh thread and post the math publicly Mark. If something has changed or is incorrect, corrections can then be made. Sadly it seems many people are buying their digital projection equipment based upon how good the salesman is with his tongue fucking skills. By that comment I am referring to how believable he can make his bullshit math appear to the victim/buyer. As an example, every projector out there can't by definition be the lowest cost to operate in the same scenario. There can be only one.  |  IP: Logged Randy Bowden Expert Film Handler Posts: 146 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Aug 2000 posted 10-12-2010 09:36 PM                     The theatre that we are working on installing right now (it's our first week here) is using a small enclosure designed to fit a specific brand of D cinema machine. The enclosure is designed and built by an elevator company. The box has a track that it rides on and can be lowered down for service when it's not jammed up against the auditorium drop ceiling. We will have an umbilical cable that rides up and down, just like an elevator would. I'll try and get some pictures if I can.  |  IP: Logged Brad Miller Administrator Posts: 17775 From: Plano, TX (36.2 miles NW of Rockwall) Registered: May 99 posted 10-12-2010 10:38 PM                     What sort of cooling does the box provide? Can the audience hear the projector, or is the box soundproof? Is the rig susceptible to movement during heavy action scenes on a truly good sound system that would show up on screen? I am assuming the projector has to be lowered to the ground before any sort of maintenance or adjustments can be made?  |  IP: Logged Randy Bowden Expert Film Handler Posts: 146 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Aug 2000 posted 10-13-2010 01:13 AM                     As far as I know the box does have some soudproofing built in, but I guess we'll see how loud it is once it's fired up. The only cooling that I'm aware of is the typical exhuast ducting out the top. I get the distinct impression that the box will just passively pull air in from the auditorium. There really is something to be said about having a dedicated projection booth.  |  IP: Logged Joe Redifer You need a beating today Posts: 12859 From: Denver, Colorado Registered: May 99 posted 10-13-2010 01:30 AM                        This is not tremendously relevant to the main discussion, but the Sony projectors are just awful. The 4K bulbs need to be changed out at around 550 hours and they are super-dim to begin with. The user interface is also crap compared to the Christies. I feel sorry for anyone who buys these pieces of shit. They have no right to exist.  |  IP: Logged Monte L Fullmer Film God Posts: 8367 From: Nampa, Idaho, USA Registered: Nov 2004 posted 10-13-2010 01:33 AM                     (ah, c'on Joe, You don't like that you have to build two playlists - a sub and a master - to get a show on the screen ??)  |  IP: Logged Demetris Thoupis Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1240 From: Aradippou, Larnaca, Cyprus Registered: Apr 2001 posted 10-13-2010 06:58 AM                     Brad we all know that the lowest cost of operation lies in the Barco projectors. You can claim whatever you wish about the dreaded Christie. Demetris  |  IP: Logged Randy Bowden Expert Film Handler Posts: 146 From: Portland, OR, USA Registered: Aug 2000 posted 10-13-2010 09:39 AM                     Hey Joe, I think they pretty much give them away and then when they break, charge an arm and a leg.  |  IP: Logged

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