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Author Topic: Refitting for Digital - Scaler options, Sound Processors Mark Pasquesi Film Handler Posts: 28 From: Geneva, Geneva Canton, Switzerland Registered: Sep 2012 posted 11-27-2012 04:36 AM                     Hey all, I really have appreciated reading about everyone else's headaches : ) Here are our dilemnas: Please feel free to respond with advice and experience: ) We are an old cinema in Geneva, Switzerland, recently taken over by the 2 projectionnists who have become the managers. We have turned into a non-profit, and I am the go-to techie/projectionnist board member, the art/independent/event film programmer, and board member... We have a very low budget, and need to expand to digital to expand our offering, and the quality of our projections. We would like local filmmakers to be able to test their films at our cinema for color correction checks, DCP and File consistency,sound, etc.. A tall order on a low budeget.... We have decided to go with a Christie 2210/Doremi serveur. A budget choice - we will miss the 4k shift over the next 5 years, but our screen is small, our cinema only seats 100. Bray limits.... Without a 12 bit capable scaler which has dual DVI output, our Bluray tests will need to be done at only 8-bit RGB with the single DVI in. Video card limits..... Similarly, this will limit the image quality of video cards which only have hdmi outs..(10-bit)...However, with the portable BM 3-D, or the AJA Thuderbolt, we could use a dual SDI patch to get the full 10 bit RGB each is capable of, and even be ready to handle a 12-bit Bluefish... --------- Sound------- I would like us to get the Dolby CP 750, and feed the old CP 55 into an analog switcher, where we could also put in our OPPo's DTS decoding input, and a mixer patch for live events (music to film, presentations and debates, etc..) -----The Christie 3d scaler - any experience----- The other thought I had was the New Christie 3D Scaler/CP combined....It seems with the new HDMI in we could actually not lose info, and send full 12-bit images from the oppo through a dual DVI in to the CP2210. ----- But Christie's old scaler is so limited (max 8 bit RGB in), I doubt their quality...and they do not have a dual SDI option in, which means the portable video cards we use as travelling proectionists (BM Ultrastudio for the moment, looking into the AJA, which permits HDMI 10-bit RGB, and their staff claims the hardware is 12-bit ready, just needs new code...we'll see) will be limited to an HDMI only in, which on the BM card is limited to YUV only, which means I have to trust the Christie scaler to treat the color change right... Not the best option if we want to let local filmmakers test their color corrections in our cinema.... In addition, given their first gen scaler is so-so, how will their first gen sound processor be??? ---------------------- Speakers - we have EV's in the surround... we have been offered used KCS by our provider...Any thoughts??? -------- Amplifiers - we have 2 Fostex AP 3060.... our provider has offered 3 used, but unspecified as of yet... Crown best? -----------Soundprocessor Disagreement------- However, our provider wants us to pick up his used CP 500.. We already have a CP-55... In other cinemas in town the same provider has put in USL JSD-80, with 35 in. The cinemas which use this have been reviewed as good but not great by local Swiss sound-mixers.. I did a sound test at one studio, and then the same film in a cinema which has the USL JSD-80, and there is a weird 'veil' starting at about 2k, continuing until 10 or higher.. The cinema with the best reviews by the mixers uses the CP 650.. It's an old school cinema, high ceilings, theater style - quite unlike our 1960's rectangular box... Our provider vehemently disagrees, and claims it is a bad option - it just gives him troubles. Another provider has solid reviews from the cinema where he installed the 750's, also to correct the same provider's 'mistakes' in one cinema.... OK, thanks, Mark  |  IP: Logged Sam D. Chavez Film God Posts: 2153 From: Martinez, CA USA Registered: Aug 2003 posted 11-27-2012 10:00 AM                       You have a lot on your plate to deal with with a very low budget and this may be unrealistic. I will only comment on your audio options. If you are doing the CP55/750 route, I would have the 55 feed the 750 and not the other way around. It requires only a custom output to input cable. Or, find a good used 650. They are around at about the same price as a 750 and will support film formats and you get rid of the CP55 which was good in its time, but far too expensive and complicated to upgrade. You do need very good audio if you are looking to attract professionals to your place so the best speakers and amps you can afford should be used.  |  IP: Logged Olivier Lemaire Expert Film Handler Posts: 118 From: Paris, Ile de France, France Registered: Jan 2010 posted 11-27-2012 02:04 PM                        Hi Mark, I don't know what you call a "low budget". For projection and scaler part, perhaps you could consider CP2210+Doremi ShowVault IMB+AP-20 sound processor - with any regular PC with an HDMI output, this can make a pretty streamlined solution.  |  IP: Logged Mark Pasquesi Film Handler Posts: 28 From: Geneva, Geneva Canton, Switzerland Registered: Sep 2012 posted 11-27-2012 03:48 PM                     Thanks Sam, Yes, sorry if the order wasn't clear - Our idea was to feed the CP-55 into the 750. Since the 750 actually has a real 5.1, we would probably need a splitter for the mono surround channel from the CP-55 to feed correctly into the Surround Left and Right of the 750. We thought that, since most everyone is distributing in DCP or Bluray, and most independents are using Bray or files, it would not be worth our money to upgrade our 35mm sound to 5.1, and that the older 35mm we might still show will not be in 5.1 anyway... ---- Our total budget for the sound changes is under 12,000 CHF (about the same as the USD, but our prices are often 10-50% more) Example - the oppo 93eu dezoned in Switzerland - now down to 829 CHF, but the 103 dezoned is only available from France at 850 Euros... ---------- Our provider told us he couldn't find anything less than 5,000 chf for the CP 650 -- and the 750 ------ So our budget just doessn't go as far... ----- Are you familiar with the Fostex AP 3060 as amps - should we just keep them and find a third? ---------- The 650 or 750 ----- The price of the CP-650 used in Switzerland is actually quite a bit higher than that of the 750...So we thought the more recent processor, the 750 would be better... But...Our installer hates the 750, and is basically refusing this option, which we find quite strange... He says it's not a good processor - what has your experience been with it? He recommends the USL since it handles DTS and 35mm in as well, which the 750 does not do... and the 650 does not do DTS... ------ Then the new Christie scaler (SKA-3D) came up, which would provide us a cheaper alternative to buying Both a sound processor and a scaler (a CP -650 and Pulse Analog Way scaler), It provides Dolby and DTs decoding, plus surround analog in, and give us a dual DVI out (according to Christie London up to 16-bit color) which also could handle HDMI in at full 12-bit. Our worry is : a) quality of sound treatment and finetuning for our cinema - which processor allows that for a reasonable price? b) ditto for image, given Christie problems with scalers we have seen in other cinemas... In comparison, the Pulse Analog Way scaler is in use at 4 very happy cinemas we know of, with rock solid performance...But it is only single Dvi-i, and thus is only 8-bit... quite a downgrade for an oppo, or a BMagic or AJA 10-bit video card... ----------------- New worry - Another cinema, where I work had their Christie model give out. They have waited over a month for the Christie cards to come in from the US...and are still waiting for their machine to be repaired - and their replacement projector, the 2210, just gave out after 10 days of use! (the block died!!) ... Is our new Christie going to be a cheap, over 55,000 Swiss Franc headache? ... Anyone in the US/Europe with better Christie repair experience? Getting nervous, as we have already put the money down for the 2210 and the Doremi.. -------------------  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 11-27-2012 04:45 PM                     Is there some sort of a deadline? Also, you shouldn't bother about the quality of the processor if you don't want to put your MAIN speakers to the test. CP750, JSD80, AP20 are all 'good enough'. The 750 is less expensive, but also more limited. People say it's slightly noisy, though I have a hard time believing it. Maybe on the analog ins. The JSD80 is an excellent choice if you also want to do 35mm. The AP20 is about the same price range. Regarding the scalers - you'll have to wait and see. The Christie is not a high-end grading projector, I guess you will have a hard time telling the 10bit from the 12Bit scaler options. Get the Christie and Doremi in and start playing to get some money in. Then wait and see what the other target group actually needs and demands. Christie is the largest manufacturer of cinema projectors, with the most experience. However, if the integrator or local distributor is bad, Christie can't help much. If a replacement has to be shipped from the US or canada, it's not Christie's fault, but the integrator's or local Christie representative, as all parts should be available locally. 55.000CHF is a bit on the high side if only for the projector. Then again, it's switzerland, you should be used to that. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-27-2012 05:47 PM                     I don't know about Europe pricing but that's a crazy overcharge for a CP750. A new CP650 will cost a fortune but there are a lot of used ones available for about the same price as a new CP750, as Sam said. I would tend to go Barco in Europe: although parts availability in NA is excellent, they are from Belgium. Probably Christie is good for parts in Europe, but just like with Barco if something is not in the continent you have to wait for it to come from home. The factory support team will also be in your time zone. I would also look at the new small-screen projectors if your screen is small enough. Using an IMB improves 3D color rendition (4:4:4 instead of 4:2:2) and allows HFR projection. The cost is not much different from a dual SDI server system. They also have a HDMI port (Doremi at least, I haven't seen any others yet). The new "mini" projectors all use an IMB type interconnect and will apparently do HFR. Any equipment dealer will have several things in mind when recommending brands and models. They will, as a rule, naturally always push what makes them the most money. Some are more intent on this than others, selling things like "super" speaker or signal cables. Some will just push something like NEC over Christie, because they get more profit. There are also opinions - certainly there are a lot of opinions expressed here. I have had bad experiences with certain brands and now I won't recommend them, although they are probably fine. If I sell something I'll have to service it, and I don't ever want to service certain things again. I don't know of any problems with the CP750. I've had a few bad ones but they get replaced immediately under warranty. All the other "digital" cinema processors are pretty much the same quality in my opinion. Amps are, within limits, amps - assuming they are professional quality (most home amps have wildly optimistic power ratings). You want a certain power rating to match your speakers but that's about it. Cheap ones generally won't last as long as the name brand ones. As far as using it for colour grading - without a very expensive colour calibration system no serious filmmaker will be interested. Lab "timing" projectors get calibrated almost daily, using instruments that cost many thousand dollars. If someone just wants to test a DCP to see if it will play, you're fine. Same with sound quality tests. Unless you have a sound system able to take extreme abuse, I wouldn't let any sound editor near it. These guys are apparently all partially deaf, they run the sound at a painful level. Fine in a small mixing theatre with a system designed for it or a properly provisioned and tuned modern cinema (and that is rare!) but, from what you describe, a recipe for blown speakers and amps at your cinema.  |  IP: Logged Mark Pasquesi Film Handler Posts: 28 From: Geneva, Geneva Canton, Switzerland Registered: Sep 2012 posted 11-27-2012 06:37 PM                     Carsten,Olivier, Dave, Yes, life is more expensive because everything in Switzerland is just more..'Swiss'. The air, the language, the Rosti, the fondu, the Alps..even are pesticides are more...Neutral, and not to be worried about. In Switzerland Heidi is alive and expensive, grandpa is kindly and runs the bank, and Peter is... well...losing his shirt to Deutschbank on subprimes : ) ----------- The cinema with the failure was a CP2000...So Christie France didn't have the card anymore - and we had to go through Christie Canada... As this cinema was using the CP2210 (until this morning when the media block failed : () as their replacement proj for a festival while waiting for the card, it was a great way for me to see what we are going to get at the other cinema...Now we're back to a panasonic until the healing ceremony, complete with very expensive yodeling, classic alp horns, and traditional bearded men wrestling in their underwear while the women bring the cows down from the alpine pastures...Amazing how folklore can raise the prices of a projector... ----------- The Oppo-93 in direct on the HDMI to the Christie DVI looks(ed) great, but we are maxed at 10-bit (12-bit fails) - which looks better than the 8 bit, but not by much, since, even in Switzerland, a DVI is 8 bit maxed. However, if we go through the scaler, it looks worse : (.. The Oppo really does a great job of scaling its data... and cost 1/7th the scaler price.. --------- We also found that our Black Magic card looked better on single sdi than the scaler which is 1/4 the scaler price... (Did I tell you the scaler speaks Schweizer-deutsch and Romansch, makes nescafé, and step dances...ohh, but it scales... neutrally..) ------------ Once we set up and used dual sdi from the BlackMagic, the nuances in the blacks and whites really moved from video to cinema levels (still not DCP, nor 35mm : ) And after we finally had the colormetry done correctly on the CP2000, it really showed an enormous difference between the single DVI connections and dual SDI. I should be clear - people are not color correcting in these cinemas - but they are testing their films on a large screen to see if they are moving in the right direction... What I found is that many of the people who do tests at this cinema work on 8bit screens, do their work in 422, and are not colorediting or correcting for DCP and the cinema. Just showing them the work in solid clear 10-bit 444 RGB is a step in the right direction to help them color correct their film for DCP. Some of them realised that they had to limit details, because shooting on a doc might mean you might have a lot of weaknesses in focus and exposure that you would rather hide than reveal.... For others, it was a lovely surprise to see how good it could look, and what information they could recover (in the burnt out whites, or deep blacks, for exampe). For people wanting to show the film to distributors/producers to get money to make their DCP/finish color correction, etc, testing this beforehand and making a conscious choice is quite important. The client base at this cinema are people testing their films, local filmmakers, mixers, etc.. These will, hopefully, be many of the same people whose films we will program at the re-newed non-profit cinema. The goal is to show independent productions, with an emphasis on local work. And thus, a crowd that will have their mix in their ears, and their images from their edits in their eyes... (Plus, they know where I live... dangerous, these cinephiles in small cities...) -------------- Dave, Unfortunately, we have already ordered our server, which is the Doremi DCP 2k4 6 tb which will cost us around 16,000 chf. (I think it plays alphorn too)... If I understand correctly, the DCP 2k4 will do 2k 444 12-bit in 2d at HFR...We have discussed 3d, but as it seems to be such a huge investment, for such an infrequent option, and one which is not really in our profile (except for films like PINA) we thought we should wait... However, there are young directors looking for cinemas to test their short films in 3d... But unless we really decide to regularly show 3d, is the IMB worth it? (wouldn't we also have to buy the attachments for the projector and lenses...which just becomes so much more expensive...and our viewers don't want to pay this difference... ------------ Thanks for the sound input - there are several cinemas using the JSD-80 - one of them being the test cinema with the Christie problems. The mixers I know find these cinemas 'ok' but not quite right... It could be how they were set up - but the same guy who tested these, did the tests for a cinema that mixers love for the sound...and it has a cp 650 with a DA20... These guys all have loooong roots in 35mm, so perhaps it just sounds familiar? Olivier, I had researched the DA20, and thought it looked good, but I know no cinema using it in Geneva, so have never heard it. It has few, but strong reviews here - I'm assuming you use it? Dave, you are right about sound mixers...But as long as the director is there, the sound is lower : ) and the old 35mm guys are a bit quieter than the young techno crowd  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 11-27-2012 07:53 PM                     If money is limited, I guess you did the best you can. 16.000CHF is a bit too much for a plain vanilla 2k4 today, but then it comes with 6TB... 3D might come cheaper one day, at least for test audiences. An infrared emitter, a few glasses...we'll see. The AP20 is the more futureproof processor. But speakers are more important. I'm wondering how sound mixers judge a sound-system by the processor. Speakers and room is clearly the dominant factor. What's your screen dimension? Why didn't you opt for the new Sony 4k machine? Deadline? - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Harold Hallikainen Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 906 From: Denver, CO, USA Registered: Aug 2009 posted 11-27-2012 10:21 PM                        The USL JSD-80 has already been mentioned in this thread. A couple digital-only processors to look at are the USL JSD-100 and USL JSD-60 (shipping in the next month or so). Both offer a lot of flexibility and can include internal crossovers for the screen channels. Harold Hallikainen USL Design Team JSD-80, JSD-100, JSD-60 (and more other non-sound stuff)  |  IP: Logged Peter Castle Expert Film Handler Posts: 220 From: Wollongong University, NSW ,Australia Registered: Oct 2003 posted 11-27-2012 11:02 PM                     If the cost of 3D glasses is not a problem as it is only for testing purposes, there are active glasses solutions that are in the (small) thousands of dollars.  |  IP: Logged Mark Pasquesi Film Handler Posts: 28 From: Geneva, Geneva Canton, Switzerland Registered: Sep 2012 posted 11-28-2012 04:26 AM                     --Carsten- Our screen is 5 meters by 4, I think. we thought that 4k was an overreach, though I did argue the near future pressure.... We didn't even look at the Sony..pricing? We started negotiations in March, and our deadline is the increasing cost of French language 35 mm, and even Bray and DCP - they'll ask for a guarantee of 300-600 euros on second run or 'classics' : ( So if we can save on shipping costs with DCP and Bray, that can give us greater flexibility... We only started to received grant money guarantees in June, July, August, with private advances finally secured in November. Our team has been killing themselves over the funding, and programming - Unfortunately the technical side has been under-reviewed, and we've tried to base purchases on what we have seen and worked with - so it was between Barco's and Christies (have seen no NEC in any Geneva cinemas, just in conference rooms). I've been voted down on all 3d consideration. ------- speakers - any comments? ------ The speakers we have been offered, used (is this a good idea) PSI 38-3 (3 voix) for Front Left/right/center 6 KCS Sr10 for surround and an unnamed sub...(this worries me - I want to hear it first) ----------- an aside on some poor choices by installers and large conference halls here in Rosti land- Unfortunately for Christie, their new conference projecteurs (6,000 lumens) have been put into spaces that have 10 meter screens that could have used the 2220 at least - 21 meter ditsance. We worked a festival where this was used, and all the directors felt their films were dim (obviously) - since we make films ourselves, we felt terrible - we've insisted on minimum 10,000 k projectors for next year's festival... ----------  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-28-2012 05:19 AM                     I doubt a dual SDI system can do 2D HFR in 4:4:4. I'm from the film world and my video knowledge is limited. My understanding is that "digital cinema" 24fps 3D is essentially 48fps with the eye images alternating, and that dual SDI bandwidth is unable to carry this at 4:4:4 so dual SDI 3D is dropped to 4:2:2 while the IMB, with greater bandwidth, does 3D at 4:4:4. Because if that, since SDI can't carry 24fps 3d at 4:4:4 I don't understand how it can carry 48fps HFR 2D at 4:4:4. From looking at the new Barco IMB HFR base clone files I get the impression that an IMB system can do 4:4:4 3D at 60fps (120fps effectively) since they have 3D files labeled for that (as frame rate increases the 3D system goes from triple flash at 24fps to double flash at 48fps to (I guess) single flash at 60fps - thus different 3D control files are required for the different frame rates and Barco includes 24fps, 48fps, and 60fps 3D files). You cinema sounds very interesting! Do you want to keep 35mm for showing archival material, or will you need it for future production work?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 11-28-2012 05:54 AM                     The problem with 4:4:4 3D on HDSDI is the lack of bandwidth. In 2D, HDSDI-A is running at 4:2:2 and HDSDI-B is running at 0:2:2 to make 4:4:4...when each cable is only carrying one eye...you CAN'T put the extra color information on 1.5GHz HDSDI (you could on 3G SDI). But for 48fps, you can ramp both of them up to 48fps in dual-link mode and your 3D example proves the point...each cable IS going up to 48fps already.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 11-28-2012 06:47 AM                     quote: Mark Pasquesi We didn't even look at the Sony..pricing? The Sony 515 is actually cheaper than the Christie - 45.000€, but including USV AND server. However, you will be limited to either RealD or Panavision 3D if you opt for 3D at one point. http://www.sony.de/res/attachment/file/91/1237489180991.pdf And the Sony is a fairly large box compared to the Christie. Any plans for open air cinema? The Christie is nice for that. 4k is not a matter of screen size, but viewing distance. I have been to a very small screen recently - around 5m wide I guess, and was only sitting about 1,50m from the screen. They were also using a 2210. If you opted for the standard 2210 with standard Doremi 2k4, the HFR will be out of the equation for you for a long time. Wether that really matters for your situation - I don't know. No one knows wether HFR will stay or go away again. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 11-28-2012 06:59 AM                     Some Black Magic video cards have 3G SDI but I don't think cinema projectors do.  |  IP: Logged

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