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Author Topic: Could a DC package ingest without dialogue? Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 03-30-2014 03:08 PM                     Strange question, but let me explain. As some of you may be aware I have been involved with a group which was originally formed to campaign for the re-opening of a small council-owned cinema where I used to work as a relief projectionist until 2010, and which was closed due to budget cuts in April 2011. At one time it looked as if re-opening of the cinema, and other facilities in the arts centre may have been possible, but due to changed circumstances which I'll not go into here, this did not happen. The campaign group then decided to try to hire the cinema from the council and run screenings themselves on one day each week. In theory the cinema auditorium was a space which was available for private hire, and I believe it was used for occasional events during the closure period. Of course, getting from this to an operating cinema has involved a great deal of work, but from now on it's two shows each Thursday, with the aim that it will one day return to being a full time cinema. Most shows will be digital cinema, with occasional special events on film or alternative content. The first screening, two weeks ago was a special for council staff, on Blu-Ray, and last week was another special, with the director and several of the cast, plus the Mayor of Croydon, present, run from a 100 GB Quicktime file supplied to us by the director. This week will see our first Digital Cinema screenings. There are still some features on the server from the closing week, but these won't run since the keys are long expired. There are also some old adverts, and these seem to run fine. Since our first film has not yet arrived the only new material we have ingested so far are a couple of trailers, plus the framing guides. When the first trailer was run it seemed to have no dialogue, though people could be seen speaking. There was sound on all six channels, and music and effects were fine. The usual set of files are in the downloaded folder. Is there any way that it would be technically possible for music and effects to ingest correctly, but not dialogue? I wouldn't have thought so, since it all seems to be in the same file, but I'm not an expert in digital cinema file formats. Having now had two trailers with no dialogue I'm starting to get a bit worried. The trailers are '12 Years a Slave' and 'The Great Beauty' by the way. Should there be dialogue on these trailers? We have two sold out screenings on Thursday, so it's got to work. Projector and server were both overhauled when re-installed by AAM; they had been removed to another venue, where tey were never used. The cinema is being used for something else tomorrow, so the earliest that I can get back in is Tuesday afternoon, which doesn't leave much time to get things fixed if there is a problem.  |  IP: Logged Mike Blakesley Film God Posts: 12767 From: Forsyth, Montana Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-30-2014 05:09 PM                        This might be a silly question, but are you SURE the center channel is working? After all, if you're listening from a few rows back in the seats to the L and R speakers playing music, it will definitely sound as if some of it is coming from the center channel even if that speaker isn't working. Did you walk right up to that center speaker with a DCP playing and check? It just seems impossible for it to be anything but a problem with the sound system.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 03-30-2014 05:14 PM                     What server, what audio processor? Download the Dolby channel test DCP from here, ingest it and listen to the channels, especially the center announcement. I assume there is something wrong with the channel mapping or audio routing. http://www.freedcp.net/dcp/test/dolby/dolby_channel_id_51_flat.zip - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 03-30-2014 05:22 PM                     DMA8+ on ProLogic decode? Server software updated to a version that forces audio watermarking on? Some Dolphin 1.0 cards have a bug whereby with audio watermarking on you lose AES pair 1 C+SW  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 03-30-2014 06:23 PM                     Thanks for the suggestions. I'm seeing activity on the centre channel LEDs on both the DMA and the amps. I wouldn't rely on my hearing; I have a hearing defect, getting worse as I get older, which makes it very difficult for me to hear direction in sound. When a telephone rings at work I have to look around the office to see which one is flashing. Carsten, Server is Doremi, processor Dolby CP-65 and DMA8+. I'll take that test file in with me on Tuesday. Pete, If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that the DMA might be in matrix mode, taking oly the first AES pair, L and R, ignoring the others, decoding those through the matrix and thereby putting out sound on the centre channel, but with the real centre channel missing? That's worth checking. I know that the DMA is capable of putting the first pair of Digital 1 through the matrix decoder if a 2-channel signal is being used on this input, but is this possible if there is a signal on the second and third pairs? I did make some changes to The DMA confiuration last week for the special show. Turned off the decoder on Digital 2 which was being used for some microphones, and had to change the global delay on Digital 4 to get the audio back in sync due to a changed video configuration for this show. I didn't intentially change anything on Digital 1, and have since returned the other settings to normal, but I can make mistakes, so it would be worth checking just in case. I have heard dialogue on a couple of old adverts. Do digital cinema adverts always have proper 6-channel sound on them, or do any of them ever have just 2-channel matrixed on the first pair, possibly something made for television maybe? If this was the case then it would explain those adverts having dialogue, but not the new trailers. As for the server software, I don't know. AAM re-installed the digital equipment a few months ago. I don't know exactly what they did, but they did make some changes to the server. A box of new parts was delivered just before the work was done, and other parts were left behind afterwards. The server no longer has a DVD-ROM drive, and I'm sure it used to, but I'm thinking back four years ago now. I would guess that the software was probably updated at the same time. I'll try everything that's been suggested, and if that doesn't fix it then I'll have to call AAM and hope we can get them in in time.  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 03-31-2014 03:24 AM                     Sounds like the server has had the hard drive cage upgrade and probably lots of other upgrades fitted. You can easily tell what the DMA8+ is doing by looking at the front panel LEDs, for normal D Cinema it should be showing 'Discrete'  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 03-31-2014 04:21 AM                     yes, but I didn't look at it while the trailers were playing. I normally keep Digital 2,3 and 4 set up as pro logic for PCM and auto for Dolby Digital; have never used Dolby E. Don't normally touch Digital 1. It's conceivable that I could have changed the decode mode for Digital 1 rather than Digital 2 in error, but it's highly unlikely that I would have changed the channel mappings, that part of the setup looks nothing like anything that I would have had reason to change. There's nothing I can do until tomorrow. If the test package shows the channels to be wrong, but the channel mappings in the DMA are correct, could they have been changed in the server? If they are wrong then I would be surprised if this hadn't been picked up by AAM when they re-installed the projector. I think it's very unlikely that anybody would have changed them since then.  |  IP: Logged Pete Naples Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1565 From: Dunfermline, Scotland Registered: Feb 2001 posted 03-31-2014 04:43 AM                     Stephen, yes. Recent versions of Doremi software have the channel mapping facility, so it can/could have been changed. Personally I leave it disabled as I've yet to find a bona fide use for the function.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 03-31-2014 05:19 AM                     You can change the mapping in the server, but you need a special access level to do it. I don't think this actually is the reason, it is very unlikely that someone fiddled with the center mapping, usually you would apply changes to surround and HI/VI channels only. I would also think that the DMA8 is the reason, and as you seem to be familiar with it, you should try to sort it out there. You can as well check the analog out->CP65->amp wiring. E.g. switch off all amps except the one for the center while testing, etc. Regarding ingest/trailer issues, you will actually have a hard time finding a trailer or ad without center dialog in it, so I am sure it is not the content you tested. '12 years a slave' trailer has clear and distinct center dialog. And no, they will/can not ingest with only individual channels missing. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Ken Lackner Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1907 From: Atlanta, GA, USA Registered: Sep 2001 posted 03-31-2014 08:19 AM                     quote: Pete Naples I leave it disabled as I've yet to find a bona fide use for the function. If the theater loses the center channel because the amplifier or speaker fails, they will, of course, lose dialog and most films will be unplayable. Map the center channel to the left or right as a temporary workaround to restore dialog until the problem can be repaired. If you want rear surrounds but only have an 8-channel AES cable, map 11 and 12 to 7 and 8.  |  IP: Logged Stephen Furley Film God Posts: 3059 From: Coulsdon, Croydon, England Registered: May 2002 posted 04-01-2014 09:14 AM                     Thank you for your help gentlemen; problem solved. It was a bit odd. Checked channel mapping on DMA and it was correct. Downloaded manual for server last night but could not get in to look at the audio configuration as the password which I have been given for that level of access does not work. Yet another thing to get sorted out. Back to the DMA. LED on front shows discrete mode for Digital 1, as does the 'virtual front panel' on the laptop. AES 1/2 Decode Mode is set to Discrete L/R. Play some trailers and the led immediately flips to Pro Logic. Powered everything down and back up, does the same again. Changed the decode mode to pro logic, then to pro logic ii then back to discrete and then it's fixed and plays fine.  |  IP: Logged

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