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Topic: Datasat now has Auro 13.1 for the HOME
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 05-04-2014 05:25 PM
Why, anno 2014, would anybody get excited about 12 or 14 distinct PCM channels? And why would anybody, besides the biggest douche in town, even want to pay $20K for it?
For professional home theater setups, this might have limited use, but for living room deployments, it's just utter b.s. Even a decent 5.1 setup is often hard to realize given the hard reality of the layout of the room. Many people I know are actually "downgrading" from 5.1 systems to "virtual surround" systems. Sure, those systems will never please the real fans, but for many people it's good enough for their living room.
I'm certain that object based sound formats will eventually also arrive in the living room and they can be put to good use there too. Sure, for the best results, one should program the speaker and room layout into the playback system/decoder, but most people probably could live with some standard presets that define some standard speaker and room layouts.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-04-2014 06:31 PM
Unless someone has a really large living room or a true movie theater like screening room there is ZERO point in putting object based sound, like Dolby Atmos, into consumer products.
Even Auro 11.1 -a channel based systems, NOT an object based system, is overkill for living rooms. Not many people bother installing 7.1 surround systems in their homes due to the installation complexity. At best, I could see a 9.1 or 9.2 format, amounting to a 7.1 system with a couple ceiling surround speakers added, being practical.
Ultimately it all comes down to title support. Right now the Auro folks have a lot more campaigning to do. They have to bring aboard more movie studios, particularly Disney and Warner Bros., to really get anywhere. I have a feeling the studios using Atmos but not Auro will prefer to wait and see what comes of the DTS MDA format and how that will ultimately overlap or replace Auro.
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Scott Jentsch
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1061
From: New Berlin, WI, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 05-05-2014 12:18 PM
I would amend that statement to be "there is ZERO point in putting object based sound, like Dolby Atmos, into low-end consumer products."
The $299 receivers that would go into a typical living room are probably not even hooked up to more than 5 speakers and a sub (if that, probably more likely a soundbar, a woofer box, and some tiny satellites). In that case, I would agree that Atmos could be overkill, but even in those situations, if the Atmos processing allowed for very flexible speaker placement, it could be useful even then. Just the ability to have the surrounds where they can go and have the processor adjust would help the consumer have better results.
However, once you get into the more expensive receivers (anything above $500 or so), those units are going into more sophisticated setups, and there is no reason that one would not expect to get Atmos (or Atmos-like) processing once it becomes available.
I've got wires in the ceiling of my home theater, just waiting for the technology to catch up. I would happily install additional speakers into that space in order to increase the performance of movies. That's one of the benefits of a room that doesn't have to be a primary living space as well!
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Carsten Kurz
Film God
Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted 05-05-2014 03:20 PM
quote: Steve Kraus
But now with DataSat poised to enter the home market I suppose it was for the best.
It is NOT Datasat entering the home market with Auro 3D - Auro 3D is not a Datasat product or brand - it is a Barco Brand.
Datasat only manufactures a ProAV/high end receiver variant of the AP20 cinema processor. You wouldn't call it home market at these list prices. Datasat produced and marketed the home/Pro AV AP20 variant RS20i already for a couple of years. The new version has just become Auro 3D capable.
What DOES collide with your mentioned split is that actually DTS, now only in the home video licensing sector, is aiming to standardize an object based immersive audio system ('MDA' - https://www.editorsguild.com/FromtheGuild.cfm?FromTheGuildid=454 ) - just not for home use alone, but for cinema use as well as an open system competing with Atmos. So dts is back again in the cinema segment. Someone recently told me that datasat and dts still operate door-to-door anyway.
So to speak, Dolby is getting it from both sides. Both clearly are aiming for a common advanced audio format for both cinema and home releases.
@Aaron: The concept of Auro 3D, both for cinema and home video, is that of a downward compatible codec, hiding the extra channels in existing 5.1 mixes. That means, you can put Auro 3D mixes on any BluRay (or DCP), and standard BluRay players can play it (digital) to an Auro 3D enabled receiver/processor. If there is no Auro 3D enabled receiver, you will only hear the standard 5.1 soundtrack.
You would think that the studios find this appoach attractive. They can advertize Auro 3D/11.1 or 13.1 as an advanced audio format to BluRay buyers on a single media type, even if these Buyers have no clue what Auro 3D is or what is needed to use it. ;-)
- Carsten
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Daniel Schulz
Master Film Handler
Posts: 387
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 05-05-2014 03:44 PM
quote: Carsten Kurz was the last to post
It is NOT Datasat entering the home market with Auro 3D - Auro 3D is not a Datasat product or brand - it is a Barco Brand.
Datasat only manufactures a ProAV/high end receiver variant of the AP20 cinema processor. You wouldn't call it home market at these list prices. Datasat produced and marketed the home/Pro AV AP20 variant RS20i already for a couple of years. The new version has just become Auro 3D capable.
What DOES collide with your mentioned split is that actually DTS, now only in the home video licensing sector, is aiming to standardize an object based immersive audio system ('MDA' - https://www.editorsguild.com/FromtheGuild.cfm?FromTheGuildid=454 ) - just not for home use alone, but for cinema use as well as an open system competing with Atmos. So dts is back again in the cinema segment. Someone recently told me that datasat and dts still operate door-to-door anyway.
Auro-3D is not a Barco brand: Auro-3D was developed by Auro Technologies. Barco is the exclusive licensee of Auro-3D for the cinema market, but Auro Technologies is pursuing other markets, including automotive, gaming, and home theater. Datasat is the first licensee to market for home theater, but I am certain that Auro is in discussions with other equipment manufacturers to license the technology as well.
As to the relationship between DTS and Datasat: Datasat licenses the DTS codecs for use in our products, just like any other A/V manufacturer: nothing more.
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Bobby Henderson
"Ask me about Trajan."
Posts: 10973
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-05-2014 04:37 PM
quote: Scott Jentsch
However, once you get into the more expensive receivers (anything above $500 or so), those units are going into more sophisticated setups, and there is no reason that one would not expect to get Atmos (or Atmos-like) processing once it becomes available.
It's all about numbers of speakers and channels of amplification. Dolby Atmos works in movie theaters that have dozens of speakers and dozens of channels worth of amplification. Every speaker/amp combo is a "node" in the 3D sound field that can be rendered.
If you only have 6, 8 or even 12 speakers there really is no point in doing object based sound. Exactly how would it perform any better than a standard channel based solution?
If anything, with object based audio in home theater there would be a much greater potential for worse quality sound due to the more complicated installation and setup procedure. Atmos (or any other object based sound format) will NOT be "plug and play." It won't be very user friendly at all. The commercial version of Dolby Atmos is complex enough that Dolby technicians have been doing all the Atmos installations themselves and may still be doing so.
Auro would be much easier to incorporate into home theater. Still I don't see all that much point to it other than attaching a brand name to a couple ceiling surround speakers. I don't see anyone but the wealthiest of home theater consumers installing separate height layer speakers for all the primary audio channels and ceiling layer speakers for a complete Auro setup. What percentage of home theater users even wire up 7.1 surround systems? Movies on Blu-ray with 7.1 surround aren't all that common. If I had an affordable Auro-capable surround sound receiver I'm not sure I'd go to all the trouble of spending the money on extra surround speakers and installing them. There has to be more Auro encoded movies to make the effort and expense worth it.
IMHO, Dolby and Auro/Barco are jumping the gun by trying to push into the home theater market. I think they need to concentrate more of their resources on improving commercial cinema sound and making complex, object-based surround sound systems less complicated and expensive to deploy. IMHO, Dolby Atmos really should be exclusive to commercial movie theaters and out of reach to the home living room.
The only benefit I can see either side gaining with pushing "immersive audio" into home theater is simply shutting out a competitor, if that's even possible. Every previous "platform" for surround sound has been occupied by multiple formats.
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