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Author Topic: Barco DP2K-10S: Cropping around image? Marlon Martins Film Handler Posts: 78 From: Torres, RS, Brazil Registered: Apr 2015 posted 05-04-2015 04:08 PM                     Hi, im new here. I have a friend who works as projectionist in the only cinema in my city (rural area in brazil) They have a Barco DP2K-10S projector, everything works fine. ive made some test DCP videos in Scope, and noticed a "decent" amount of cropping around the image. As the movies does not have any border or needed to crop (and 2048x858 is already "very cropped" in my eyes ) i was wondering what is the cause of that. its a software crop? cause i believe the lens are proper adjusted (no spill over the screen). They are using like that. It bothers me a lot that, cause i know scope videos have a tight "head-crop", and loosing more "image area" to me is sacrilege (every pixel count). I work with video production, and tried to find installations manual and set-up for this projector with no luck. Thanks for any help and sorry for my poor english  |  IP: Logged Justin Hamaker Film God Posts: 2253 From: Lakeport, CA USA Registered: Jan 2004 posted 05-04-2015 04:40 PM                        A few things here. First, it is incorrect to say that 2048x858 is cropped. These are the dimensions of the Scope image. If you choose to film in the scope format, you need to compose your image so the elements fit within that image. If you don't have enough height, then pull back from your subject, or use the Flat format. As for the cropping on the screen, you have to remember that not all cinema screens are set to be perfectly masked in the scope and/or flat aspects. When setting up screen files, it's normal to have some cropping in order to make the image fit within the masking. Usually this will mean up to 5% of the image. Unless you are using the entire scope dimensions, then the small amount of cropping should not be an issue. It is also possible the cinema's screen files were not properly set up. If the lens file was zoomed too much, then they could be cropping more than the appropriate amount.  |  IP: Logged Marlon Martins Film Handler Posts: 78 From: Torres, RS, Brazil Registered: Apr 2015 posted 05-04-2015 05:20 PM                     yes, you are right, i should not use the term "cropped". i should say "not much room" for crop the image without affect the scene. by my tests, looks like the cropped area is about 10 to 12% of the screen. (i made some crop patterns just cause i was worried about cropping) i understand that "it can be cropped" with no problems, but if its not needed, then better not to crop right? I'm not sure the guys that installed did the proper job. Here in Brazil it's kind of "normal" even the specialized people for a job to not to do it properly (sad but true). They already did a sub-par job on the power wiring, and i'm not confident they did a proper job on the projector set-up either. edit: a sample of the cropped area:  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 05-04-2015 05:51 PM                     Marlon - download these: http://www.freedcp.net/dcp/test/xdc/xdc_test_pattern_XYZ_1-85.zip http://www.freedcp.net/dcp/test/xdc/xdc_test_pattern_XYZ_2-39.zip And check again. They are 'official' and have cropmarks with them. All cinema projectors have the option to apply masking to the image edges. It may be that in your case they overdid it. But maybe it's a combination on lens setting and masking. These systems are usually protected from manipulations to assure a proper image for each days presentations. You may need to contact the owner or installer to find out what is actually going on. If you are interested, google for a 2014 edition PDF of 'Barco Communicator user guide' and make yourself familiar with it. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Justin Hamaker Film God Posts: 2253 From: Lakeport, CA USA Registered: Jan 2004 posted 05-04-2015 06:21 PM                        Marlon, looking at the image you posted, I would guess that whomever set up the projector had zoomed the image too much and then cropped to fit the masking. When I'm setting the screen files, I put up a framing pattern - Barco's default is pretty good. Then I adjust the zoom and shift settings just to the point where the image is centered and all of the format's markings are buried in the masking - for example, just to the point where all of the red scope lines (on the Barco pattern) are into the masking. Then I crop to the point where I have a nice clean image all the way around the masking - usually a pixel or two overlapping the masking. My experience has been that when the top and bottom are set to the right size, there may be 10-25 pixels on either side of the image that need to be cropped. Even if it's 25 pixels on either side, it's only going to be about 2.5% of the image. Plus, you should always be able to get the image to fit either vertically or horizontally with zero cropping.  |  IP: Logged Marlon Martins Film Handler Posts: 78 From: Torres, RS, Brazil Registered: Apr 2015 posted 05-04-2015 06:42 PM                     thanks guys for the help. i will use those two patterns to test the crop tonight. @Carsten Barco Communicator is a software or that device you connect on the side to configure the projector? @Justin mmmm, good to know the procedure. thanks for detailed info. but the question: how and where to set up screen files? i will google a bit more...  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 05-04-2015 06:53 PM                     Barco Communicator is a software running on a computer to set up and control Barcos projectors. If you are familiar with typical video projectors, you will be surprised how complex options on cinema projectors are in comparison. Barco also offers a touch-panel-pc running that same software. Some projectors have this touch-panel mounted on, some not. It is not needed for everydays operation, since the side panel and cinema server are capable to control the most important functions as well. Communicator offers different user access levels. Depending on these levels, you have different access rights to change settings (or not). - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Marlon Martins Film Handler Posts: 78 From: Torres, RS, Brazil Registered: Apr 2015 posted 05-04-2015 07:06 PM                     thanks. will see if the laptop that is used to control the projector have the software.  |  IP: Logged Marlon Martins Film Handler Posts: 78 From: Torres, RS, Brazil Registered: Apr 2015 posted 05-04-2015 11:18 PM                     Got back, below the test results: as you can see, the crop is very strong (measured 12% on both directions). the scale on the left didn't even appear. the test pattern on the barco itself have no crop at all, but i believe it does not use the adjustments of the screen preset (so i believe the projector/lens are properly aligned) the notebook have the barco communicator, so i guess i can fix it. normally i would look around to find my way, but as i would not like to "mess stuff" (they have sessions every day), anyone can point me where is the adjustment? PS: the "professionals" that installed used low amperage switches, some of them are getting very hot and not working properly. I will have change them...  |  IP: Logged Justin Hamaker Film God Posts: 2253 From: Lakeport, CA USA Registered: Jan 2004 posted 05-05-2015 12:14 AM                        That's just sloppy workmanship. They should adjust the zoom until the vertical arrows are just touching the masking. This is likely going to leave the left and right still outside the masking, but would be a much smaller crop. The only reason I could see for leaving it like this is if there is an issue with the lens's motors. Some InVision lenses are prone to having the focus drift between format changes - sometimes fairly drastically every time the format changes. In this case, the theatre may have set the flat and scope images so the motors do not have to move when switching formats. This isn't an acceptable excuse for not getting the lens repaired or replaced, just an explanation for why it might have been done.  |  IP: Logged Marlon Martins Film Handler Posts: 78 From: Torres, RS, Brazil Registered: Apr 2015 posted 05-05-2015 12:17 AM                     but the built-in test pattern are properly aligned, with almost no crop at all (less than 1%) with scope lens so this does not mean its a software only problem?  |  IP: Logged Justin Hamaker Film God Posts: 2253 From: Lakeport, CA USA Registered: Jan 2004 posted 05-05-2015 01:09 AM                        Here's a comparison of the test pattern on one of my projectors vs the Barco test pattern on the same projector. Note that I have curved screens, so the image looks a little warped when photographed. For the sake of comparison I've included the full Barco framing pattern with an approximation of my screen's crop outlined in yellow so you can see how little is missing. The full scope image is edge to edge.  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 05-05-2015 03:50 AM                     Marlon - sometimes the zoom range of the lens is not able to fit the screen for scope and flat, and then masking shortcuts have been taken. The Barco have zoom/focus buttons on the side panels - you should first check wether there is some zoom in/out range for both formats. Does this screen have 'masking', in this case, physical masking (black cloth). Is the current cropped image fitting within that masking? If the lens has enough range, you can go on and change the electronic masking in the projector. I can only advise to read through that Barco manual completely in order to understand what you are doing. The good thing is - the Barco has lot's of free presets to use for playing, so you can keep the existing presets (as bad as they may be), until you arrived somewhere. The important thing to know for all DLP based cinema projectors is, the presets all build on top of each other and the individual items are interchangeable. Typically, you do not built a full new preset, but only exchange one item of a preset (e.g. signal input, or color conversion), and leave all others untouched. So e.g. the lens setting and masking can be used for all inputs the same, and once adjusted, will again be correct and identical for all presets that use it. It's a hierarchical system - let's take this signal input preset a, apply that color interpretation preset b, send it through this signal processing c, then apply masking and lens memory d. We ant only the focus to adjust for all existing presets? Then we only change lens memory d, and it will be applied by all format presets using it. So, whatever you do, try to create doubles of existing presets first and play around with them. The communicator software, btw., will also allow you to backup all the settings to files, so you should probably start there. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Marlon Martins Film Handler Posts: 78 From: Torres, RS, Brazil Registered: Apr 2015 posted 05-05-2015 04:10 AM                     thanks Justin and Carsten. I Will try to fix it tomorrow, together with the electrical fixes  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-05-2015 07:26 AM                     There may also be a problem on the PCF or IMB front where a magnification is coming in. Check on the Barco projector in the PCF section to see if the input size is 2048x858. If not, Barco now has some "default" buttons to set them correct for things like 2K Scope. If it does make the image fit properly, you'll need to save the PCF and also make sure your saved file is used for the Scope preset (typically button 2). You are correct though...the scaler in the ICP is deactivated when a test pattern is active (though it gets confused if you have an anamorphic squeeze in the Screen file and will then scale the test pattern down but not apply the squeeze).  |  IP: Logged

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