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Author Topic: High Capacity and Compatibility server in 2016 Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-17-2016 09:24 AM                     It appears that the day I've dreaded is fast approaching. I need to find a suitable alternative to the Dolby DSS line of servers. The DSS line of servers had key features that made them particularly suited to our core customer base. 1) They could store as much as you want. That is, you can go up to 16TB if you desired though most of our customers are finding 6TB to be a comfortable size. 2) Ingest of any movie or content transfer while shows are running without glitches. 3) Run most any frame rate imaginable. The DSS line is good up to 60fps on CAT862s, 120fps on CAT745s and up to 30fps on 4K. 3) Easy integration between the servers so that SPLs and content could easily move about without external TMS. 4) Great logging that is accessible. 5) 4K and 4K upgradable. So as I look out at the current offerings. Some are immediately discounted because they are projector specific (Alchemy and IMB S2) though we use a lot of Barco projectors, it is tough to standardize on the Alchemy except for certain customers that would never need it to be in a mixed environment. In the high capacity front...GDC has their Enterprise grade storage BUT that brings along the SX-3000 that HAS to be shut down before the projector, but more importantly, GDC will not publish their frame rates (despite requests) beyond the basics. I can't specify them if the manufacturer will not back them up to run things like 24-60fps on 2D and 24-60fps on 3D. I've received 25fps 3D. Will it run it? Who knows but GDC won't publish that it will. GDC also chokes on ingest while the show is running as well as content transfer while the show is running. Their logs are locked too. I will not be beholden to paying their tech support fees to analyze logs. Their tech support is GREAT but holding the logs hostage is just plain wrong. I also HATE that it deletes shows as they run rather than leaving a history on the schedule. Integration is okay if you use their TMS and at least the annual fee (bi-annual normally) isn't stiff but still, would rather have the option of only pay if you WANT the upgrade (perhaps it does that...I haven't been in the situation of it nagging). Then there is the Doremi/Dolby stuff. The ShowVault/IMB can do up to 6TB if all four drives are stuffed with 2TB but this device is getting a bit old and still uses the PCIe cable thing, which makes it tethered. I'm sure that the HDMI port is also stuck in its time. That isn't its fault...all equipment is a "snapshot" of the era in which it was made. But if I'm moving towards a new platform, I'd hate to be doing it again in 6-months. Then there is the Dolby IMS-2000...coming from the IMS-1000 it gives me the shivers. I also think the UI for the IMS series is about as bad as I've ever seen. Really poor color/contrast choices and things are just scattered...one almost has to use the hot buttons to make sense of it. The on board storage is only 2TB (WAY TOO SMALL) but has the options of a NAS storage. Has anyone done NAS storage with it? Can one confidently play content from the NAS to it? Thus far, my only experience (limited) with NAS storage has been with Christie and that hasn't been a pleasant experience. So when festivals roll around and one has to load up on the servers (A LOT)...what is everyone doing to allow for the big storage? The Dolby/Doremi TMS seems to want to only work with their products (big surprise there) and has that nagging reoccurring fee so there are two strikes against it. These sites wouldn't lend themselves to a TCC or AA type TMS, necessarily though perhaps a GDC TMS but now we are talking separate computers to run the TMS. The Dolby TMS had EVERY server be a TMS terminal. It just worked so well for the people we deal with. So what say you? Just remember, whatever you are suggesting, it has to have large storage, integrate well, and play most anything that walks in the door (not necessarily from Hollywood).  |  IP: Logged Leo Enticknap Film God Posts: 7474 From: Loma Linda, CA Registered: Jul 2000 posted 03-17-2016 11:08 AM                        quote: Steve Guttag So when festivals roll around and one has to load up on the servers (A LOT)...what is everyone doing to allow for the big storage? DSS200s with 8-port RAID cards substituted, and 8 x 2TB drives. A contact is very keen on the Alchemy and has been trying to persuade me to consider one if we upgrade our older NEC to a Barco (which may be on the cards in the next few months). While the front end looks reasonable from the demo and the specs cover what we'd want to do with it, a ceiling of 4TB is simply not enough for a venue that needs to ingest a five-day fest's worth of DCPs before the opening night. Dolby are continuing to support the DSS200 until April 2018 (at least, this is my understanding), and so I have no plans to revisit this issue until around fall 2017, when I intend to look at what's on the market at that time. If, by then, 4TB laptop drives are available and the Alchemy can use a RAID of three of them, then that would be just about enough space to work for us. But for the moment, I have no plans to retire our DSS200s.  |  IP: Logged Gordon McLeod Film God Posts: 9532 From: Toronto Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-17-2016 01:10 PM                     Overall i find GDC reliable but i dislike the locked logs and as of late we seem to be finding more bad RAM I have always heard good things about the QUBE server but have yet to play with one  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-17-2016 04:59 PM                     The locked logs are a non-starter. But even more so...their specs are for don't cover the range of frame rates I HAVE TO SUPPORT...I was mistaken above in that they do support 2K 3D at 60fps already. But they don't list 4K/30...which is essential if you want to run the DCP of Oklahoma!. I'm sure we'll see something at CinemaCon. Doremi's servers have normally be the darling's of the festival circuit because they run most everything and that is a big plus. But they do have size limitations of 6TB and you have to use the 4 drive systems (ShowVault or 2K4)...and then there is the TMS connectivity.  |  IP: Logged Scott Norwood Film God Posts: 8146 From: Boston, MA. USA (1774.21 miles northeast of Dallas) Registered: Jun 99 posted 03-17-2016 05:19 PM                        One plus for the Doremi with its IMB is that it is possible to mix frame rates in a single playlist without glitches at the frame rate changes. This is true with the Barco projectors, at least. Also, it is easy to get content off of the Doremi and onto a blank CRU or USB drive. This has occasionally been useful. The Dolby does this, too, but I do not believe that it is possible in any officially supported way on the GDC (if it is, let me know). I have no idea on the TMS issues, though. I just run this stuff from time to time...I don't install or maintain it.  |  IP: Logged Stephan Shelley Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 854 From: castro valley, CA, usa Registered: Nov 2014 posted 03-17-2016 05:56 PM                     There was a similar thread a while back. The USL IMS was mentioned as a possible candidate.  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 03-17-2016 06:08 PM                     I'm afraid that, whether we like it or not, the future will be vendor-provided IMSes and external NASes if you want more storage than can be fitted inside the local storage of the IMS. The reason why this will probably win the race is not because it's technically the best solution, but simply price. The projector vendors will simply undercut anything other on bundle price. Once the IMS becomes a mandatory item on any new projector model, they're essentially killing the competition. The situation could be somewhat improved if Barco and Christie would improve and standardize their API. At least it would open up the possibility of someone else building the ultimate TMS, which can handle mixed vendor setups without being a pain in the butt...  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-17-2016 09:56 PM                     I'm not convinced of that at all. Christie backed off by discontinuing the Solaria 1/1+ and bring out the CP2208 which allowed anybody's IMB to be used. Barco's Alchemy has taken the first step of replacing the ICP to break the 500Mbs bottleneck...hence it can handle higher bandwidth. However, if a new ICP were to emerge it would negate the Alchemy inherent advantage. I fear you may be right on the NAS type storage thing though I personally prefer local storage. As for USL...storage limitations are a problem for it, from what I can tell but I'm looking at it real hard.  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 03-18-2016 02:52 AM                     I blame Dolby for not integrating the Doremi servers into the DSS line. They removed the DSS line without having a suitable replacement ready. Lots of customers with small Dolby TMS servers cannot replace a faulty server - or add a new one. Dolby and Doremi don't even talk to each other (unless Dolby finally stopped removing the small files when ingesting content). Doremi 2K series have not received a software upgrade for ages. 2.6.4 works but there are lots of minor bugs which would be nice to see resolved. On the other hand the DSS series keeps being developed at the usual pace of "we fix 1 bug and we introduce 2 brand new ones" - sounds like ASDA . If Barco keep doing a good job with the Alchemy, they will wipe away all the competition from the market.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-18-2016 06:25 AM                     4.9 "fixes" the removal of the small files, as you call them, Dolby's mistake was discontinuing the DSS line. They've essentially told an entire market to "go away" and "please use this product we just bought that you didn't chose to use before." There are plenty of proponents of Doremi products...they ARE the most installed server. But that doesn't mean that it is best/right server for every application. Between the DSS and Doremi products, they had many bases pretty well covered. They threw a sizable portion of their market away in the hopes it would return. And you are correct, they didn't really have an upgrade path for those in the DSS line. They think that their TMS will harmonize the two products and I don't doubt it will for some but definitely not for all or, I predict, most. Mind you, if you are using a full-featured TMS system, the role of the show player (SMS) is greatly diminished because most user interaction is at the TMS level, not SMS. But for singles, Art, special venue...it is just the opposite...there is a lot of interaction at the SMS level. The more you want hands on, the more you want some interaction between servers and how the SMS interface is. You definitely don't want a WEB interface to the SMS as your only means of interaction in this sort of application. So back to the original question...what server adequately replicates or substantially has the positive features of the Dolby DSS line? I'd say that GDC is a near miss but with some deal-breaking gaping holes (Logs, quirky shut down procedures, lack of guaranteed frame rates, and vanishing schedules). In typical multiplexes...these are not such big issues but in some of our venues...definite deal breakers.  |  IP: Logged Tom Bert Expert Film Handler Posts: 134 From: Belgium Registered: Apr 2010 posted 03-18-2016 07:09 AM                     On the list of supported formats/framerates for Alchemy, these are publically available: 2K2D: 24, 25, 30, 48, 50, 60, 96, 100, 120 2K3D: 24, 25, 30, 48, 50, 60 4K2D: 24, 25, 30, 48, 50, 60 4K3D: 24, 25, 30, 48 ... and also fractional framerates  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 03-18-2016 07:45 AM                     From my limited experience with the ICMP (we are still in testing), this server has a very high potential. Too bad it is limited to Barcos, but of course, Barco has a good reason to do so. Steve - there is an older statement from Doremi regarding disc support >2TB. That expresses that it shouldn't be much work to do it, and that they didn't investigate further so far because there was little demand for it. Probably related to TMS/Library servers taking over high capacity needs to a large extent. But there is certainly a chance that DP2k4 or ShowVault will support larger discs in the near future. Also - as you said earlier in other threads - Doremi is the only real remaining solution for a classic mediablock/HD-SDI. So, having both options under the same manufacturer/software level should be a big plus for you as well. I would press on Dolby for the larger disc support. The fact that there hasn't been a major Doremi software update AFTER the Dolby takeover should mean something. I am nearly sure there is something behind the corner. Maybe even an upgrade to their now slightly outdated IMB. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 03-18-2016 07:49 AM                     quote: Steve Guttag I'm not convinced of that at all. Christie backed off by discontinuing the Solaria 1/1+ and bring out the CP2208 which allowed anybody's IMB to be used. Barco's Alchemy has taken the first step of replacing the ICP to break the 500Mbs bottleneck...hence it can handle higher bandwidth. However, if a new ICP were to emerge it would negate the Alchemy inherent advantage. I do appreciate Christie's move to remove their own rather failed attempt of an IMS as a mandatory item for their entry level projectors. Maybe it's a sign they're silently ditching their own IMS implementation? But still, I'm not really all that convinced this strategy would stick. Instead of rolling their own, they might as well buy it from someone else, like Doremi/Dolby and sell this as a bundle. As for Barco, it looks like they're quite committed to their Alchemy strategy and they've essentially eliminated the ICP. As for now, it doesn't look like Texas Instruments is putting a whole lot of efforts in producing a new ICP design, so what we see right now might also be the beginning of the end of the ICP itself, because nobody wants to get stuck at this 500Mb barrier. The upside of this is that it could remove some redundant components, remove restrictions and get costs down, but the downside will also be less compatibility between vendors, which will make it harder for IMB/IMS manufacturers to support multiple vendors. quote: Steve Guttag I fear you may be right on the NAS type storage thing though I personally prefer local storage. I also do prefer local storage. Maybe one of the IMS vendors creates a proper mSAS implementation, where you can just connect a storage shelf to it. It would be the closest thing to local storage with a decent amount of capacity. The development of higher capacity traditional 2.5" hard disks seems to be stuck, but multi-terabyte SSDs are gaining traction and might become an affordable alternative within the near future. Samsung unveiled a 16 TByte SSD in a 2.5" package last year for example.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-18-2016 08:33 AM                     Tom. Yes, the Alchemy has many things going for it...including the widest range of frame rates (both DCP and Alternate Content)...but it has a storage limitation of 4TB. It also is exclusive to Barco...which for me isn't a deal breaker in and of itself for MOST of our sites but the 4TB limit would be in the special venue/art circuit. They are all having us roll up to 6TB on the Dolby stuff now. Though the difference between their existing 3TB and a 4TB system would be over 5 features, typically. But if you are a "festival" type venue...you can't have enough storage. An immense amount of time is spent getting content loaded and ready for show...you might have 5 different titles on a single day. Being able to load/transfer while a show is going is a biggie too. Carsten, My guess on the Doremi gear is that all engineering time is being spent on the IMS2000 and their TMS (the future, if you will) and the existing stuff is "stable" in their minds. GDC does still manufacture the SX-2001 so they too have a traditional HDSDI/Mediablock solution as well as a traditional server/IMB (SX2000AR) as well as are more IMSesq like solution of the SX-3000 but at least they kept the storage external so it can actually have a LOT of storage (16TB)...so GDC has actually kept their options very open, in that respect. They also have an IMB announcement at CinemaCon so we'll see what is up there sleeve there. I do hope to see some advancement by Dolby on the traditional front. Then again, I hope they come to their senses on the DSS line and ramp up again (no reason to believe it will happen...just hope it does and that other parts of the world have been more vocal about it than I).  |  IP: Logged Tom Bert Expert Film Handler Posts: 134 From: Belgium Registered: Apr 2010 posted 03-18-2016 09:09 AM                     On the limited onboard storage of ICMP (and IMS in general): we do know of 3TB, 6TB and even 13TB SSD disks that could be compatible. The question is: how much are you willing to pay to have all content available onboard? Current price points of those disks would put the price of the storage >50% higher than the server price. On the "Barco only" topic: feel free to convince Christie and NEC to become "Alchemy-compatible" :-)  |  IP: Logged

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