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Author Topic: Post Production Projectors Alan Gordon Film Handler Posts: 4 From: Brooklyn, NY, USA Registered: Apr 2016 posted 04-19-2016 07:24 PM                        I've been investigating upgrading my color grading suite to have DCI projection. So far I have found the DP2k-P and DP4k-P projectors from Barco. Does Christie have anything similar that would be suitable for color critical viewing? NEC? Sony? On the lower end, would the DP2K-8S might also be usable considering the screen size will surely be on the smaller size? Thanks for any input!  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-19-2016 07:56 PM                     For Christie, I'm unaware of equivalent projectors BUT they DO have high-contrast lenses and there is nothing to say that the Barco and Christie have the same contrast to begin with. Christie does have an aperture set available to potentially increase contrast. NEC has a single aperture they included in their non-S2K projectors (or lasers). I would NOT consider the S2K projectors for critical viewing (anybody's). They have all of the negatives of the 4K chip (low contrast) without any of the benefits.  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 04-20-2016 12:18 AM                     Christie doesn't offer a specific set of "Post Production" projectors. I'm also not so sure what the Barco "-P" series brings to the table, besides a "high contrast lens", that's also available for their normal DCI projectors. It includes an ACS-2048 alternative content switcher, which is, as far as I'm informed, end of sale and if you're a post production house, you probably have lots of other means to route alternative content to your projector already... In any case, I would always go for a 3DLP setup for DCI color grading, so that eliminates Sony. Although some chains are squarely in bed with Sony, TI 3DLP 2K setups have the biggest install base.  |  IP: Logged Marlon Martins Film Handler Posts: 78 From: Torres, RS, Brazil Registered: Apr 2015 posted 04-20-2016 01:32 AM                     The DP2K-P specs says 1,2” chips (2.500:1 contrast) and 1,38" on the DP4K-P (2.300:1) isn't that the main "extra" compared to 0,69" ones (1.850:1 - 10S, 8s)?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-20-2016 05:55 AM                     It is my understanding that the entire light path is improved, where possible to improve contrast...not just the higher contrast lenses, in the name of getting more contrast out of the projector. I've never sold/installed one so I can't say for sure however, I'm positive that it isn't just the higher contrast lenses. Which, if you have the light are advisable anyway.  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 04-20-2016 06:45 AM                     The price for "P" projectors suggests there's more going on than just using a high contrast lens. We have not installed one yet. We have put several Barco "cinema" projectors in CGI and animation shop screening rooms though. Final grading in Toronto is often done at Technicolor, they probably have a "P" projector - although I haven't seen their room. Not sure what Deluxe has here now. If you want to do critical grading and such the P projector may be worth the price? Barco offers a "post-production" version of the Communicator control software for optimizing image color and gamma etc on any of their cinema projectors. I would not recommend a .69" chip projector for critical viewing (not that we haven't sold a few to production shops). If you want/need 4K, the 4K DMD chip loses some contrast much like the .69" 4K because the DMD mirror size and density is the same - the .69" 2K chip is basically 1/4 of a 1.38" 4K chip. For Barco's cinema series projectors: the "s" series do not have DVI inputs. You can use an SDI input/decryptor board for SDI only or an integrated media block/server. These have HDMI, SDI, and/or DisplayPort inputs (different ones have different options). Other Barco models do have the dual DVI inputs (but the Barco ICMP integrated server disables them and adds its DisplayPort inputs). Using a Sony SXRD projector - not sure. They do have some issues with the imager deteriorating - with color shift - in cinema use. Other cinema xenon projectors with TI DMD technology are pretty much the same inside, and perform pretty much the same. Lenses will be different... but you may get the same lens in a different mount from different brands. I have had no major issues with support from any manufacturer for cinema projectors. Phosphor laser - a different light source for a standard 3-chip DMD light engine as far as I've seen. 3P laser - color gamut may/should be extended; with modified optics (ie IMAX laser) you can get impressive contrast/low dark level but most use the standard DMD prism with typical contrast/dark level. You can talk to Dolby about their projector, it's built by Christie with "different stuff" inside (last time I asked, Dolby was not discussing just what is in there). Supposed to have extended color gamut and extremely high contrast. The black level is certainly very impressively dark. Not sure if they are selling them to anyone except in a "Dolby Cinema".  |  IP: Logged Steve Kraus Film God Posts: 4094 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: May 2000 posted 04-20-2016 10:09 AM                    Wouldn't it make good sense to judge picture quality on equipment comparable to the best but still ordinary cinema gear?  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 04-20-2016 10:20 AM                     Somehow that logic doesn't play in studios. They use sound systems no sane owner would pay for and their projector colors are calibrated with equipment few sane techs would pay for. However - many apparently sane people pay ludicrous sums for "super premium" cables claiming magical ability to perform better than the standard cables used in every recording, mixing, and grading suite I've been into. How do they recover the magic lost in those studio cables?  |  IP: Logged Marcel Birgelen Film God Posts: 3357 From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2012 posted 04-20-2016 01:39 PM                     quote: Marlon Martins isn't that the main "extra" compared to 0,69" ones (1.850:1 - 10S, 8s)? It's essentially a DP2K-B / DP4K-B series projector, they also come with 1.2" DMDs. I somehow doubt that they built a custom light engine for a device with such a small target market. From what I've been told, (and yes, that info might be incorrect or incomplete, so feel free to enlighten us), it's essentially a normal DP2K/DP4K projector fitted with a "high contrast" lens right out of the box, a customized version of the communicator software, an End-of-Sale input switcher as a "free" giveaway and it has been tested to meet higher specifications. So, essentially the best of the batch are destined to become a "P-series", while the rest is good enough to become an ordinary DCI projector. So if this is just it, I'm not sure if this is really worth the premium. quote: Steve Kraus Wouldn't it make good sense to judge picture quality on equipment comparable to the best but still ordinary cinema gear? I guess it would, but there's so little money in good sense, so just let's not talk about it, ok?  |  IP: Logged Alan Gordon Film Handler Posts: 4 From: Brooklyn, NY, USA Registered: Apr 2016 posted 04-20-2016 04:20 PM                        Thanks for all the info guys! Huge help. Yeah the logic is always do the technical work on the closest to reference as possible, whether it's audio mixing or color grading. That way when cinemas are a little off spec you've got the middle ground and it should still be very watchable. That said, I also think that if a projector can hit DCI color primaries (Which it seems pretty much all of the cinema projectors do) it should still be able to accurately represent the image seen in theaters. I've also heard to stay away from Sony's from grading since they're not DLP. Why is that if they can still hit the right colors?  |  IP: Logged Ian Freer Expert Film Handler Posts: 135 From: Wellington, New Zealand Registered: Oct 2003 posted 04-20-2016 04:54 PM                     quote: Alan Gordon I've also heard to stay away from Sony's from grading since they're not DLP. Why is that if they can still hit the right colors? I'm only guessing but; quote: Dave Macaulay Using a Sony SXRD projector - not sure. They do have some issues with the imager deteriorating - with color shift - in cinema use. This suggests a Sony would probably be fine for a while, but eventually they are prone to the colours drifting unacceptably for grading (and even too much for cinema use)...  |  IP: Logged Marco Giustini Film God Posts: 2713 From: Reading, UK Registered: Nov 2007 posted 04-20-2016 05:44 PM                     The 4K-P machine, which as said is a 23B, outputs about 6000 lumen versus 23000 of a 23B. This is to improve contrast and colour gamut and uniformity. The machine sells for about twice as much the regular one, it's not just a HC lens. Whether that is worth the double price is another story. But post productions are required to achieve 2500:1 contrast, higher gamut and higher uniformity. If you must have it I believe a Barco P is the only choice. If you're happy with 2000-ish contrast and regular cinema tolerance, then any machine (besides 0.69) will do. Another thing is that if you install a normal Barco and then your uniformity is 0.012 between left and right, Barco will likely say it's within tolerance and won't do anything. If you install a P machine and you end up with 0.012 delta, Barco will replace the light engine or whatever is needed to achieve the tighter tolerance.  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-21-2016 06:51 AM                     Hitting the primaries is just but one step in the color grading process. How is it when the level varies (look at the colors on a step chart, look at the greys on a step chart...etc. A popular misconception for some with NEC NC900C is that one can remove the notch filter, reshoot colors and you are good-to-go...NO! Primaries are primaries...then end points but do not depict how the system will do between. Without the notch filter, it will no longer be as uniform. This is the same, wrong, line of thinking that has people putting high-gain screens and setting the center to 14fL and thinking they have made a bright picture with less light. The spec is not JUST 14fL in the center but there is also a uniformity component to the spec too and if your screen gain is above 1.3 and flat, it will never achieve it and your image will be DARKER than spec. Again, it is my understanding that the entire light path is improved on the "P" series to achieve its higher contrast. I suppose one could look on the parts lists to see if there are unique parts on the P projector versus the standard "B" projectors. The Software (Post Production) works on ANY Barco based DCinema projector, not just the "P"...in fact, Post Production goes all of the way back to the DP30, 40 and 50 days. It's chief addition is a more detailed PCF section where one can make their own TCGD files, PCF files to hit desired color corrections for particular projects. It also blows out the potential presets up to 99 and their is an extra column of test pattern presets. Also, it was first to have a "dark display" color scheme so your laptop wasn't as bright in the theatre.  |  IP: Logged Alan Gordon Film Handler Posts: 4 From: Brooklyn, NY, USA Registered: Apr 2016 posted 04-21-2016 03:58 PM                        Hrm all very interesting. They do charge an arm an a leg for all that extra calibration. I guess I'll have to decide if it's worth it. In either case, I'm thinking of going with the Alchemy board to have an onboard server for checking and screening DCPs. Would I be able to use its Display Port input for the actual color grading if I converted from my Blackmagic's HDMI out? Or would I be stuck until Barco decides to finally enable the HDMI inputs?  |  IP: Logged Steve Guttag We forgot the crackers Gromit!!! Posts: 12814 From: Annapolis, MD Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-21-2016 04:25 PM                     HDMI input is active already and has been for some time...I believe it is fully functional now too (supports everything they promised it would on 2D and 3D. That should be a viable way of handing a server in the unit plus it has SDI inputs if you have an such sources. Note, I just checked, the Light Processor (light engine) part numbers are different between the B and P of the same version projector.  |  IP: Logged

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