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Author Topic: JNIOR - Insider Connections Bruce Cloutier Expert Film Handler Posts: 161 From: Gibsonia, PA, USA Registered: Aug 2016 posted 09-07-2016 04:25 PM                        A lot of you have various versions of JNIORs in widely varying applications. Some have good experiences and some probably not so good. What if you had a direct connection to the designers? Well, here's your opportunity. You don't get this most anywhere else. I'm doing this exclusively here in the Film-Tech forums for now. I am the CTO at INTEG and am responsible for the JNIOR and all engineering up to the applications level. That means, for the Series 4 at least, that I designed the circuits, prototyped every version (by hand) and wrote every byte of OS (JANOS) code. The Series 3 (older Model 31X) is a slightly different story as there I did not have access to the core operating system code. There was a lot of reverse engineering and work-around effort to get that product to work as well as it does. I can explain should any of you have an interest. As for applications like cinema.jar or cinema.jnior, well that is Kevin's domain. He's right around the corner. As for support, well you know that is Rick and he's just down the hall. Now I cannot deal with pricing or really do any sales but that, I am sure, you don't need here in the forum. So, I am just introducing myself. Feel free to express your opinions. I'll try to help; I'll try to answer your questions; And, I'll be happy to take my licks. You know, I am hoping to learn from you folks.  |  IP: Logged Buck Wilson Jedi Master Film Handler Posts: 894 From: St. Joseph MO, USA Registered: Sep 2010 posted 09-08-2016 02:35 PM                     How cool is this!! Welcome! This is how things improve, kudos.  |  IP: Logged John Thomas Film Handler Posts: 75 From: Boston, MA Registered: Sep 2011 posted 09-08-2016 06:11 PM                     In my own personal experience the only annoying thing about jniors is the physical form factor. I have seen a lot of creative ways to hang jniors inside pedestals and on walls with wires wrapped around and through every which way but not one single elegant method. I wish there were a cheap, jnior-enclosing rack-mount kit instead of just the control panel accessory which I have never actually seen on the field ($250?!), or even just a rack-mount version of the jnior. I think the jnior would compete more strongly with the Christie ACT this way.  |  IP: Logged Kenneth Wuepper Phenomenal Film Handler Posts: 1026 From: Saginaw, MI, USA Registered: Feb 2002 posted 09-08-2016 06:59 PM                     Hello Bruce, Happy to see you here. Please bring a thick skin as the gloves are often off. This is a great place to get customer and user insight as well as sense what the dealers and installers are doing with your equipment. Welcome!  |  IP: Logged Bruce Cloutier Expert Film Handler Posts: 161 From: Gibsonia, PA, USA Registered: Aug 2016 posted 09-08-2016 08:50 PM                        Hey Buck, John, Kenneth, and those lurking in the background... Thanks for the welcome. I'll admit that I am not sure what will come of my participation here but I'll give a whirl. One of the concerns that I've had with all of the products that I have developed over the years (and I've been at it since the 70's) is that I have never had good and close contact with the end users. Feedback is very gratifying even in the negative. I guess that I am hoping to complete the loop and see where it takes things. I've suggested that we should invest in or some how make an arrangement with some local theaters just so we can get our hands dirty on the Ground Level as you put it. But we haven't moved in that direction and the product really is generic and finds its way into wide spectrum of applications. To John's comments, we do very frequently discuss different physical form factors for the JNIOR. I can take the exact circuits, not affect any code, and just lay it into another package or rack mount. It hasn't happened for a couple of reasons. First of all, we have no way to know if one package would sell better over another. We couldn't phase out the existing package. So we would have to build and inventory product in 2 or maybe 3 different forms. That brings me to something else in John's post. Oh, and I think, John, you mean "inexpensive" and not "cheap". I think there is a difference. But we don't manufacture in the volumes necessary to reach the lower price points that we experience (or are spoiled by) with a lot of consumer electronics. If we could build 100,000+ JNIORs a month (and if I sent jobs overseas) we could get the cost down and you can save $100 or maybe more. We run at production rates far from that and need to rely on local contract manufacturers who also need to make a profit to stay in business. We hear you though. I understand. I am not sure that the JNIOR competes with the Christie ACT. Obviously certain applications can be achieved with either. The ACT has more than twice the I/O points whereas the JNIOR has a lot more flexibility to be user programmed and perform stand alone applications. Many of you don't see the programming aspect of JNIOR as you utilize the cinema.jar (or older cinema.jnior) programs which create the macro environments for you. Those of you with a little knowledge of Java can do a hell of a lot more with the thing. I could create a JNIOR-based ACT drop-in replacement. I'm not sure that Christie would actually mind. I don't think they want to be controller manufacturers. We are not seeing the demand for it from us I don't think. That's Rick's area and I don't think he feels that we would move many. You can change that. I can't. What I can do is make the gadget and make it synergistic with JNIOR. Guess we need the encouragement. I'd love to see some photos of all of those creative ways of hanging JNIORs and the resulting wiring mess. If you have wired something else in a way that you are proud of, let's see the comparison. Maybe you can give us some ideas. So how do we share photos around here? Hmm... how do I get a photo under my name here on the left? :Bruce  |  IP: Logged Carsten Kurz Film God Posts: 4340 From: Cologne, NRW, Germany Registered: Aug 2009 posted 09-09-2016 06:29 PM                     Bruce - you are wasting your time here. As INTEG support was always top-notch in my opinion. I'm glad you are not making 100.000 units a month. As then we would have to suffer the same poor support we experience from other cinema equipment manufacturers... The story about the 3xx core system code interests me. Nothings beats re-engineering stories ;-) Although they are usually more fun when hardware is involved. Also, INTEG did not start into the cinema business right away. How did it all begin, and how did INTEG get drawn into it? Was it Doremi, as they started to sell JNIORs to cinema integrators/customers (even though their servers always had GPIO ports)? I think you should rethink your position about a rackmount form factor. Over here in europe, the DIN rail adapter kit seems to be used a lot. But I see JNIORs being hung with cable ties very often as well. Probably not many people think about mounting options when ordering them, and then they skip the DIN rail kit. - Carsten  |  IP: Logged Bruce Cloutier Expert Film Handler Posts: 161 From: Gibsonia, PA, USA Registered: Aug 2016 posted 09-09-2016 07:19 PM                        Carsten, You are right about INTEG. We're actually a broader industrial controls company. We started out developing PLC control systems and software for the newspaper industry. We're actually responsible and still support the systems that take papers from press to trucks for the NY Times, I think the Washington Post, and others. The company initially was more programming services oriented. During that time frame we also developed computer models for the Hot Strip Mill used in the Steel industry. We still license copies of the simulation software. It is used by all of the key steel companies across the globe. At some point a few engineers developed an inexpensive controller to use for applications that did not warrant investment in PLC controls. The JNIOR was born. It was the Series 1 but they didn't have any idea that there would be 4 generations of the device let alone that it would become a product. The first real applications of the JNIOR ended up using a redesign that we refer to as the Series 2. You might still find some of those around. If you encounter a JNIOR2 it really won't be usable. I can probably get you schematics and you would have to fall back on the processor manufacturers software if you wanted to get it to do much. We were marketing the JNIOR2 along with the other things that INTEG did. Someone from Kodak contacted us suggesting that if we were to drop the analog I/O and increase the relay counts that they would be interested in the JNIOR and in quantity. At that point I had exited a company that I started back in 1984 and had left a VP of Engineering position at a local HVAC controls company to do different things. I joined INTEG to develop the JNIOR3 which became the Model 310. This was then accepted for Kodak and employed as some of you know in theater automation. After Kodak dropped out of that market many of the remaining players adopted the JNIOR for automation. So we found ourselves providing a lot of units for this application. The JNIOR is used in a lot of different applications in different industries. The cinema market though has collected the greatest concentration of the things. As for the engineering, I probably can get far too technical but we can get into it at some point. Unlike those other larger companies, we're pretty open with details. The Series 4xx JNIORs are significantly better than the 3xx models. We took the time to redesign the core the right way. This time not rushed by potential and pending Kodak orders and not forced to utilize the same technology selected by the JNIOR2. :Bruce  |  IP: Logged Bruce Cloutier Expert Film Handler Posts: 161 From: Gibsonia, PA, USA Registered: Aug 2016 posted 12-21-2016 02:07 PM                        Carsten Kurz wrote: "Bruce - you are wasting your time here." Well I gave it a few months and perhaps, Carsten, you are right. If anyone knows of a better place online for me to make myself available let me know.  |  IP: Logged Dave Macaulay Film God Posts: 2321 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Apr 2001 posted 12-21-2016 03:02 PM                     I don't know if we are typical cinema users - but I think so. We use them for basic I/O: output pulses to the dimmer, masking motors, older sound processors without network control, and inputs from the fire alarm system, preshow system, or operator controls occasionally. We have used some of the (amazingly powerful, btw) programming features with macros, TCP-serial, etc. but that's not normal for us. When I get into that I have to refresh my memory from the manuals ... and usually call Rick. He is super helpful - hang onto him! Form factor - the package is obviously convenient to make but it can be a challenge to mount in a typical cinema system. A rackmount package could be useful. And a simple way (jumper or switch?) to use internal power to trigger the inputs with a dry contact?  |  IP: Logged Leslie Hartmier Expert Film Handler Posts: 100 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Registered: Jul 2012 posted 12-21-2016 03:19 PM                     I suspect that the issue is not location, as honestly, I've not found a place more suited to cinema, etc as Film-Tech. We're like movie releases here - much like the way it seems that similar movies come out suspiciously around the same time, we grind on specific things in waves. Just because you don't see us moaning about JNIOR today, doesn't mean someone's not going to have a weird experience with one. Eventually, it all filters through here, if it has to do with the technical aspects of cinema. So, stick around. Eventually we'll challenge you. My thoughts on it, anyway.  |  IP: Logged Bruce Cloutier Expert Film Handler Posts: 161 From: Gibsonia, PA, USA Registered: Aug 2016 posted 12-22-2016 11:32 AM                        Hi Leslie, I suppose you are right. It's a good thing that there isn't a running dialog of folks with JNIOR issues. Of those who do call Rick (and everyone should) when they have a problem I'll usually hear about any that can't be corrected with a configuration change or whatnot. Rick should be everyone's first stop. He is most familiar with the cinema application. The macros and all of that for cinema are really part of an application (cinema.jar or cinema.jnior) that runs on the JNIOR. The product can be found in a lot of different industries and they don't necessarily do that with the cinema functions. Most have their own focused applications. You may know Kevin. He is responsible for the development of most of the applications including cinema and the Support Tool for instance. He works closely with Rick in responding quickly to customer needs. I am responsible for the hardware and the operating system firmware. So I am more of use in dealing with physical things and what is deeply under the hood. And Hi Dave, You mention the form factor. People don't realize, and you might agree, that a good percentage of a solution and the work involved falls in selecting and mounting everything and then neatly wiring it all together. You know, supplying power and having the result look like it will work in the first place and do so reliably for a long time to come. You want it to look good and you want your customer to believe that you know what you are doing. I hear you there. The JNIOR enclosure was designed to be wall-mounted and basically for Kodak's original interests. We have retained it with minimal change for well over a decade. Not because it is the greatest thing in the world. The reason is in the economics. We discuss it frequently in here but it never advances and for a few reasons. First we try to manufacture the units in as high a volume as possible. This amortizes the setup fees and tooling charges across a larger number of units. It is how we have been able to hold our pricing and offer purchasing discounts when they make sense. We are not sending jobs to China. We don't build 100's of thousands of these things either. The first question generally is what is the market for the new form factor? If we make a rack mount version how many would sell? If we made just 100 of those to start they would be really expensive. If we ran a respectable amount they might sit in the warehouse. Customers might buy the new version and as result the larger quantities of original units would begin to age in inventory. Splitting production between two or more formats cuts the manufacturing volumes of each and pricing has to go up. Nobody wants to risk big investments in inventory. With lots of questions and concerns we elect to stick with the status quo for the time being until answers are more readily available. At the same time you know simple 1U rack mounted trays are readily available (even from Amazon). Two quick holes and the JNIOR is rack mounted. We thought that if we would see that a lot of you were doing that then it would tell us about the potential demand. I am not arguing. Just laying out the reality. I'll be honest, one of the reasons that I am participating in this forum is in hoping to see more of what you all are doing with the JNIOR so we can maybe make some of these changes/decisions.  |  IP: Logged

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