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This topic comprises 5 pages: 1 2 3 4 5
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Author
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Topic: Replacing an aging digital projector....options
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 02-16-2019 06:18 AM
I'd say that 10 years is a sound and safe bet. Anything extra you get out of it, should probably be considered borrowed time.
If you want to stay with NEC and if you consider 2K to be sufficient and your screen is not much wider than 30ft, the NC1201L-A is a cheap entry option. It will probably be cheaper than your NC2000 was when you bought it, but you'll save on the lamp replacements.
Don't expect to get 15 years out of it, though. The expected life time of the machine is 20K hours, but I expect you'll see serious brightness degradation after roughly 7 years.
Nevertheless, the machine could be a suitable intermediate solution. I expect that within now and 10 years 4K will be the norm.
The NC2041L would be a great replacement if you want to go 4K, but it will be quite an investment. You don't have to worry about brightness though and you could use both "Laser" and "4K" as effective advertisement arguments. With the expected life time of 30K hours and sufficient "brightness budget" on the light engine, you should expect to get 10 years out of it.
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Carsten Kurz
Film God
Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009
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posted 02-16-2019 02:28 PM
One should definitely think about replacing S1, but S2? No.
While we do have a 4k projector, and I clearly see the benefits, the trouble is that 4k in DLP goes with a price premium, and as such, is hard to justify economically, unless you have a very large screen that also need loads of light. Good 3P or 6P lasers still cost a fortune, and I am not yet sold on phosphor lasers. They may turn out as an expensive early adopter experiment sooner or later.
Exhibitors have in the past feared that having 2k projectors would exclude them from DCP delivery at some time due to presentation quality considerations of studios. Others thought that once 4k is there, 2k would simply be 'outdated' and also rejected by cinemagoers. However, that is not a realistic expectation. There had been rare restrictions in that sense for very specific programs, but, for the studios, acting that way limits the success of a specific release considerably, as most screens are still 2k. I don't think a 2k vs. 4k consideration will ever play a role in mainstream cinema. Also, many 2k systems can actually look better than 4k systems, resolution is not everything that makes a picture look good.
- Carsten
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 02-17-2019 10:44 AM
quote: Sam D. Chavez
My observation after installing a 6P is if you have good light you will notice speckle and it gets under my skin for sure. So close and yet so far.
I have yet to notice speckle on the laser phosphor machines, even without screen shakers. A phosphor-laser based machine will not yield the same color gamut as a 6P machine, but in general have a far better contrast than comparable xenon machines.
The problem with laser light sources, is that currently nobody knows anything regarding their expected life time, other than some rather vague statistics provided by the manufacturers.
quote: Mike Blakesley
We're also still running a Dolby CP650 so we're going to need to replace that before the projector, I expect.
I used to be a fan of the Datasat AP20, now the AP25, but I'm no fan of Datasat anymore, since their support is almost close to non-existent, since they've been acquired by ATI.
You could go for a trusty CP750, but this march, will mark the 10th anniversary since the launch of the device. I'm pretty sure it will not stay around another 10 years.
For any non-MDA sound system right now, I would go the QSC Q-Sys route, as this will allow you almost unlimited flexibility and it will allow you to expand to an MDA system later. And if you now start with a basic setup, compatible with your current 7.1 setup, it will not be much more expensive than a new AP25.
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 02-17-2019 11:36 AM
I've noticed speckle in all RGB laser machines (mostly in red but I've seen it in green too).
As far as contrast go and LP increasing contrast...maybe 20% on a good day but for most, nope.
The color gamut on LP BARELY makes DCI and looks a bit phony to me (I prefer the color on a xenon machine to an LP). That said, I prefer the uniformity on an LP machine to a xenon. You pick your poisons.
On the CP750, I think all that would kill it off is a problem sourcing a semiconductor/chip. It fills a very valuable, profitable and high-quantity. That is, one that just wants a 5.1/7.1 system. I like it better than the JSD offerings for those applications, myself. If the JSD60 had been allowed to become the JSD60+ or whatever they were going to call it, perhaps that would have shifted. The JSD60 was so close, if it had 7.1 with HI/VI output and moved the matrix decoder to pair 1. I still prefer Dolby's approach of having one input button that can be set to decode different formats rather than having a "option" button that can only be configured one way at the expense of other ways.
I think the CP850 could be more in Jeopardy as the IMS3000 emerges as the only Dolby/IMS server. It is my prediction (no inside info) that when the IMS3000 is offered without a sound processor, there won't be a need for an IMS2000 and the IMS3000 for Atmos is already cheaper than the CP850 plus another server so it starts to lose its purpose. The CP850 doesn't handle multi-channel analog which, for us, excluded it from most installations. I suspect it hurt its sales to others as well.
Back to the OP.
I'd run it till it drops. But yes, plan on replacing it within 5 years. I think any year after 10 is a gift. It is a current production unit so it is bound to be supported for some time (same pricing)
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 02-17-2019 04:16 PM
quote: Steve Guttag
I've noticed speckle in all RGB laser machines (mostly in red but I've seen it in green too).
All "pure laser" machines seem to have noticeable speckle, although it's usually effectively eliminated with those pesky "screen shakers"... You'd expect the same speckle for the primary laser color on an "LP" machine as well, but I have yet to spot it.
quote: Steve Guttag
The color gamut on LP BARELY makes DCI and looks a bit phony to me (I prefer the color on a xenon machine to an LP). That said, I prefer the uniformity on an LP machine to a xenon. You pick your poisons.
It depends on the type of phosphor and laser combination they're using. Most models use extra color filters to better match the color gamut and there is a difference between individual machines of how good this matches up.
Personally, I have more problems with some of the "pure laser" implementations out there. Those projectors put an enormous peak at 3 or 6 wavelengths, but humans might not all be equally sensitive for those wavelengths. Especially in 3D mode, for me the colors between "left" and "right" often don't match up.
quote: Steve Guttag
On the CP750, I think all that would kill it off is a problem sourcing a semiconductor/chip. It fills a very valuable, profitable and high-quantity.
Isn't the CP750 the last processor where they actually designed both the chassis and the entire interior (minus the PSU) themselves?
I'd somehow expect them to replace both the CP750 and CP850 with a new "generic hardware" machine, that supports essentially the same features as the CP750 does now, but is license-upgradeable to Atmos. I think they will still need to provide an option for Atmos, even without Dolby providing the IMB. Quite a few CP850s went into premium rooms that are running on e.g. Alchemy. If they don't continue to provide Atmos to those setups, they might lose that market to e.g. Barco.
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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!
Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 02-17-2019 04:54 PM
You might be onto something of a common processor. Any new standalone processor for Atmos would require another trip to the FIPS testing to be a trusted device.
What would they hope to achieve by replacing the CP750? What is out there to compete with it?
JSD60, JSD100, DPM100/300, DCP100-300 (all from QSC), Trinnov's Ovation and, to a lesser degree, the AP25.
One would think that the DCP100-300's days are numbered with the DPM series taking over those roles. Likewise, the JSD100 likely will find a smaller and smaller market share as the DPM100/300 will do most, if not all of what it can do. The JSD60 is cheaper than the CP750, so there is an appeal there, it has a dedicated Drive-In mode, which is nifty. It is also just 1U tall.
The Trinnov has a place though it requires an understanding that you are paying more for better sound...not a guarantee for cinema owners! Whereas it is double the CP750, it is the harder sell and it doesn't handle HDMI (at this point). If it handled HDMI with Dolby and DTS, it would help it, I would think.
Back to Dolby, even if they added an HDMI to a CP750esq product, it would be crippled with a missing DTS decoder for political reasons (like the CP850).
The CP750 is odd in that it wasn't brought out to showcase any Dolby technology. From the CP100, CP50, CP200, CP55, CP65, CP500, CP650...the products came out in a manner to primarily showcase Dolby technology or make it easier/cheaper to put in Dolby technology. The closest you could get to that would be that it has AES inputs to allow Dolby servers to have a sound interface without the now-defunct DMA8/Plus. The CP850 brought Atmos. But AES3 isn't Dolby technology. It is generic and doesn't require Dolby to achieve as good or better results.
So what justifies its replacement? How much extra market share do you get for the new piece? Perhaps if Dolby were to implement a good auto-tune like Trinnov (or even their CP850) that would be something. I would think that a new processor would almost need to coincide with a new technology.
Personally, I have no reservations putting in a CP750. I prefer faders with a 0-10 scale over a dB scale. (So points for Trinnov, Datasat, and former USL there). If you look at the link in my QSYS Corner, there a user also presents a 0-11 fader instead of dB because dB faders for end-users are silly. They're great inside for setting levels but for people that want things a little higher/lower, linear scales are the most proper.
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Marcel Birgelen
Film God
Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 02-17-2019 05:44 PM
Let me start with that I'm trying to look from Dolby's perspective here. It's not necessarily the path I would choose.
I think you're pointing out a few reasons for a new, common processor yourself. The design of the CP750 is now older than a decade, there might be quite a few chances of parts running out. And while it should be entirely possible to replace them with new, more current parts, it will incur some re-engineering costs, all to keep a product floating that, after a decade, can't hardly be marketed as "new" anymore.
Also, you're pointing out a few shortcomings of the much more expensive CP850, now also running on a somewhat dated Supermicro OEM platform (circa 2010-2011).
We also know that the costs of the CP850 is barely in the hardware, but much more in the Atmos "licensing costs". The most expensive part of the CP850 is most likely in the analog inputs and outputs, which aren't standardized PC components.
So, what I expect from the proverbial CP950 (or whatever they may name it), is a newer generation OEM standard PC hardware (e.g. a newer Supermicro OEM platform), but with roughly the same I/O configuration as the CP750, so it can be used as a drop-in replacement.
It will also feature Dolby Atmos, but at an additional, expensive license and if you want additional analog breakouts, you have to go the same route as the IMS3000.
If they sell the box for roughly the same price as the CP750, then the added advantage would be simply that every theater that deploys the new box, now has an upgrade scenario to Atmos. Although, in practice it would require a lot more than just adding a license, it's a nice marketing argument. You're not ready yet for Atmos? Don't worry, you're not throwing away your current investment.
What would be the added benefit for Dolby?
They can further minimize their hardware offerings, possibly bringing down the costs even further and they could guarantee their supply chain for another e.g. 10 years. Also, they increase their stake in the ever so profitable business of selling expensive licenses for stuff that's technically already there.
And yes, something like auto-tuning/calibration like in the Trinnov and Datasat machines would also be a welcome extra. Not sure if Dolby will follow in this regards though. Dolby's professional hardware has always been targeted at techs that know what they're doing, even though a decent auto-tune is a good way to speed stuff up considerable, even for techs that know what they're doing.
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