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» Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE   » Operations   » Digital Cinema Forum   » Subtitle Engine not processing 'C', 'K', 'Q', 'J', or 'F' (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Subtitle Engine not processing 'C', 'K', 'Q', 'J', or 'F'
Tom Lewin
Film Handler

Posts: 6
From: New York, NY USA
Registered: Jun 2011

- posted 02-15-2019 08:02 PM      Profile for Tom Lewin   Author's Homepage   Email Tom Lewin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've got an odd issue that I'm trying to pin down.

House projector is an NEC NC3200S with an IMS 1000.
NP-90MS01
Software ver 2.6.7-0
Firmware ver 4.6.6-0

We were sent a DCP for a special documentary screening that contained closed captions. For the actual screening we'll be bringing in a CaptiView, but client asked to test closed captions ahead of time, so I enabled Doremi's Subtitle Engine and have it set to process closed caption data if no subtitle content is detected. Lo and behold, it's not processing 'C', 'K', 'Q', 'J', or 'F' characters.

So for instance a caption should say, "IT HAD BECOME MORE THAN JUST A QUICK FIX" but is displayed as "IT HA EOME MORE THAN UST A UI IX."

Previously the server was a few revisions out of date, so Dolby just supplied me with the up-to-date versions above, but the issue is still there.

The house that made the DCP said they ran it with a CaptiView system in another venue and had no issues. They've also supplied an open caption version as a backup and informed me that the XML files used in the creation of both is identical, so the issue is likely with the server.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what else I can try to generate these captions correctly?

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Steve Guttag
We forgot the crackers Gromit!!!

Posts: 12814
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Dec 1999

- posted 02-16-2019 02:05 AM      Profile for Steve Guttag   Email Steve Guttag   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Make sure that your Captiview software is up to date. It has more effect than the server software.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

- posted 02-16-2019 05:13 AM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe it's a font issue in the DCP. The CaptiView system doesn't use the font, so it could work fine with that system, yet not display correctly when rendered on screen.

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Harold Hallikainen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 906
From: Denver, CO, USA
Registered: Aug 2009

- posted 02-16-2019 06:21 AM      Profile for Harold Hallikainen   Author's Homepage   Email Harold Hallikainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think Marcel is on to something! If indeed it is a bad font file in the DCP, it would behave similarly on other systems. Can the Doremi be set to use an internal font?

Harold

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

- posted 02-16-2019 06:36 AM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Is this an interop DCP?

If yes, XML and font can easily be inspected. If it can be traced back to the font, using an actual captiview should be safe, as they use their own internal font. But one should make sure the text encoding is correct.
I don't know what happens when you leave out the font file. Some servers may then use a default internal font, but another outcome could be that the DCP is not ingested properly. One could change the font reference in the DCP by hand, but then some hashes need to be recalculated. The internal caption renderer of the Doremis have no (documented) way to be configured other than caption positioning.

Is this DCP encrypted?

- Carsten

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Ioannis Syrogiannis
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 147
From: Reykjavík, Iceland
Registered: Jun 2005

- posted 02-16-2019 09:54 AM      Profile for Ioannis Syrogiannis   Email Ioannis Syrogiannis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Behind those disappearances, and after those remarks, it seems that the culprit is the child of a font compressor that didn't take into account the closed caption text in all capital.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
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- posted 02-16-2019 12:43 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Make sure that the projector software/firmware bundle (including the ICP) is up to date, too, as that could affect subtitle rendering. The current version is, IIRC, 4.312, which includes ICP version 4.5.

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Carsten Kurz
Film God

Posts: 4340
From: Cologne, NRW, Germany
Registered: Aug 2009

- posted 02-16-2019 02:12 PM      Profile for Carsten Kurz   Email Carsten Kurz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Ioannis Syrogiannis
it seems that the culprit is the child of a font compressor that didn't take into account the closed caption text in all capital.
I thought of that as well, but, why would a FontCompressor run throw out just:

C', 'K', 'Q', 'J', and 'F' ?

Of course, somewhat may have gone wrong during testing a file with Font Compressor and that ill-fated font file found it's way into a new DCP. I usually advise to strictly rename compressed (reduced) fonts to a new unique name expressing it's reduced nature.

- Carsten

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Harold Hallikainen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 906
From: Denver, CO, USA
Registered: Aug 2009

- posted 02-16-2019 02:42 PM      Profile for Harold Hallikainen   Author's Homepage   Email Harold Hallikainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
On font file naming, I recently ran into a movie where the font file names (URI in LoadFont) were something like 70 characters long on reels 1-4 and 10 or 20 characters long on reels 5 and 6. This caused my timed text file parser to crash since it only allowed XML attributes up to 50 bytes long. I am working on an update that increases the size of the attribute buffer AND truncates the string copied to it should the size be excessive. So, it's always something! I wrote that code in 2010 and in 2019 it breaks. In closed captions, we don't use the font file, but all elements, including LoadFont, are parsed, thus causing the issue.

Harold

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Ioannis Syrogiannis
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 147
From: Reykjavík, Iceland
Registered: Jun 2005

- posted 02-17-2019 03:24 PM      Profile for Ioannis Syrogiannis   Email Ioannis Syrogiannis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Carsten Kurz
...why would a FontCompressor run throw out just: C', 'K', 'Q', 'J', and 'F' ?
If I had to guess, it would be because of the lack of them within the subtitles of a certain reel.
In following the line of such an hypothesis, it could be more than only those capitals that were thrown away, yet those surfaced on the test.
If closed caption used just italic characters, the loss would probably be more significant.

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Randy Stankey
Film God

Posts: 6539
From: Erie, Pennsylvania
Registered: Jun 99

- posted 02-17-2019 04:09 PM      Profile for Randy Stankey   Email Randy Stankey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It sounds like a subsetting problem to me.

In some types of files, like graphics, the program only includes the characters of a font that are actually used. It's supposed to save file space.

It seems, to me, that font subsetting was used but the information about which characters are actually used got messed up and characters were thrown out that shouldn't have been.

Possibly, when the font was compressed/packaged, it was set up for only part of the program. One part (or parts) do not actually use those characters but, the rest of the program does. Then, somebody (accidentally) used that packaged font for the whole movie. Thus, when the movie plays and the left-out characters are needed, they don't display as they should.

Basically, when the movie was being packaged, I think somebody checked the "subset fonts" box in the software when they shouldn't have.

In this day and age, I don't know why anybody would use font subsetting, anymore. We have enough storage space. Bandwidth is good enough. The space saved by subsetting fonts would be a fraction of a percent, compared to the size of the entire movie file. (DCP package)

It's freakin' stupid! We're not talking about somebody working on a home or office computer. We're talking about a BUSINESS where things are supposed to work without problems, the first time, every time. In other words, "Mission Critical."

We're paying a LOT of money for movie projection equipment... Hundreds of thousands of dollars... even MILLIONS! It's all supposed to be mission critical operation.

What kind of a dain bramaged fool is going around clicking random options on a computer screen when they shouldn't?

Come to think... Why is the "font subset" option even still avaliable?

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Ioannis Syrogiannis
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 147
From: Reykjavík, Iceland
Registered: Jun 2005

- posted 02-17-2019 04:29 PM      Profile for Ioannis Syrogiannis   Email Ioannis Syrogiannis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I *totally* agree!
Though it might be because of the ICPs and the servers not rendering themselves the subtitles that are still around.

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Leo Enticknap
Film God

Posts: 7474
From: Loma Linda, CA
Registered: Jul 2000

- posted 02-17-2019 04:35 PM      Profile for Leo Enticknap   Author's Homepage   Email Leo Enticknap   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Randy Stankey
We're paying a LOT of money for movie projection equipment... Hundreds of thousands of dollars... even MILLIONS! It's all supposed to be mission critical operation.
Which is why, in the USA at least, subtitles encoded for rendering in the projector have gained such a poor reputation for reliability that the few foreign language releases that do play widely tend to have their subtitles burned in (e.g. LAS-en as distinct from LAS-EN) now. I think it was the Attack on Titan debacle which provoked that, with dozens, if not hundreds, of screens with Series 1 equipment that hadn't been updated since installation being unable to play the subtitles.

I get the impression that because subtitles are more widely used in Europe, theater operators and techs there are more conscious of the need to get everything right, both in mastering the DCP and in setting up the server and projector.

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Marcel Birgelen
Film God

Posts: 3357
From: Maastricht, Limburg, Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2012

- posted 02-17-2019 04:40 PM      Profile for Marcel Birgelen   Email Marcel Birgelen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote: Carsten Kurz
Of course, somewhat may have gone wrong during testing a file with Font Compressor and that ill-fated font file found it's way into a new DCP. I usually advise to strictly rename compressed (reduced) fonts to a new unique name expressing it's reduced nature.
Maybe someone used a demo-font on the final run which on-purpose misses some glyphs, or it's just a stupid bug. [Smile]

quote: Harold Hallikainen
This caused my timed text file parser to crash since it only allowed XML attributes up to 50 bytes long.
Keep in mind that, depending on the original encoding of the XML, attributes are allowed to be in Unicode. Which often especially breaks stuff when the encoding is UTF-8 and suddenly people start to introduce characters from the Unicode namespace rather than the ASCII namespace only. [Wink]

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Harold Hallikainen
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 906
From: Denver, CO, USA
Registered: Aug 2009

- posted 02-17-2019 04:52 PM      Profile for Harold Hallikainen   Author's Homepage   Email Harold Hallikainen   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know if it's still the case, but the TI CineCanvas system only supported font files up to 640 kB. See http://www.deluxecdn.com/dcinema/reference/ti_subtitling_spec_v1_1.pdf#page=13 . Thus the need for "font compression."

Harold

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